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It's really quite ignorant of me to comment on the topic I know very little about and frankly never had to endure.  Well, that won't stop me.  

It occurs to me that there is a growing dialogue about the Cold War era that we can only begin to have as time heals wounds and we have a more objective, less sensitive, defensive perspective.  While it appears that only a small minority of people actually want to return to that era, many people who lived through it now openly talk about what as been lost in the last 20 years, such as the sense of community and solidarity, the role of friendship, a certain idealism.  Yet, if one is to say the fall of the Berlin Wall or the Soviet Union was a kind of tragedy, they are still considered dangerously insane.  I'm sure it was terrible for many, esp. those who naturally inclined to challenge the status quo, the intellectuals, artists, dreamers, idealists, rabblerousers...  Despite my hopeless infatuation with Communism now, I'm certain I'd have been among the wrong crowd had I been born in the DDR.  Too romantic to ignore the injustices around me, too scared to try to escape, finding ways to get through the day, attempting suicide.  I hear the DDR had a very high suicide rate. (Have you seen The Lives of Others?)  But I get the impression that the average citizen then did what the average citizen does today: resign themselves to the system they've been handed, indulge in the occasional patriotism, and concentrate most of their lives on working, raising a family, domesticity, entertainments...  Quiet lives of desperation.  And content enough, but just enough most days.  Some days miserable, some days joyous.  I think the West has been resistant to accepting the universality of this phenomenon.

There was always something cool about East Germany, at least in my American psyche.  Something about the aesthetic I associated with it.  Severe and intelligent and modern in the old-school modern way.  I don't know precisely where I got the idea from.  I'm not even sure I've ever seen East German art.  I don't know how I came to the conclusion, but in my young mind, East Germany, or was it East Berlin?, was crawling with hipsters.  And not the poseur kind.

I can't believe it has already been 20 years...   I feel like that last 20 years have been a progression of events that have chiseled away at all of the hope and optimism I was filled with watching that wall come down.

Lastly, forgive me if this has been discussed in one of the zillion of EU Parliament election diaries, but are you familiar with Sahra Wagenknecht?  I saw a little item about her on Deutsche Welle and was quite intrigued.  Is she absolutely fringe, or do you think she is somewhat representative of the people in this poll?  She's fringe, isn't she?  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 12:20:24 PM EST
Only a quick reply now on the last: Sahra Wahrenknecht was one of the two 'stars' of the PDS party (the successor of the East German state 'communist' party SED, and the East German one of the two predecessors of today's Left Party): provocative, passionate about ideology, good speaker, young, and good-looking. Thus, she is both not representative (as being a prominent intellectual/party politician; and being more the face than the holder of power within the party) and representative (of at least that half of the 57% positive about the GDR who vote for the PDS/Left Party).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 01:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
passionate about ideology ... being more the face than the holder of power within the party

Adding; implicit in that is internal conflict with the pragmatists who were/are in regional governments in East German states.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 01:47:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lives of desperation are no less quiet than before. And not only for East Europeans.

Did suicide statistics change in East Germany? I heard that in Baltic countries or Hungary they went worse.

by das monde on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 05:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Hungary? No. Hungary led the global suicide rate list sometime in the eighties; and suicides peaked in 1983 (4,911 out of ten million). The number sank ever since (2,450 in 2007), with only slight upticks at times of crisis. Then again, this is from the 2007 ESPAD report, based on a poll of young people in 36 European countries:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 06:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bah. Forgot to say: the diagram is for suicide attempts.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 06:12:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for East and West Germany: check page 8 of this pdf. It shows a near monotonous decrease from the seventies both in the East and West (may be an effect of psychopharmaca), with the East coming close to the West from a higher level. Interestingly, the areas of what became East Germany were higher before 1945 already!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 06:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely everything I know about suicide statistics in the DDR I learned from Lives of others.  What?!  You mean that movie misled me?!  <--bit of snark in that last sentence...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:48:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The movie may have also misled you into believing that ordinary citizens in the West could look up the codes of Stasi agents, but that it was impossible for journalists to do so (it didn't mislead me, but noticing this when I saw the movie sort of ruined the ending...)
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 at 07:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To indulge in my superficial maleness, she's hot and has a Rosa Luxemburg thing going, and uses it too.

Non-Superficially, I find her a little too, dare I say, Stalinist for my taste.  I think that is in fact detrimental to the party.  The one thing Die Linke really needs to do is shake off the perception that it is the SED reincarnate.  My opinion is that it is one of the main barriers to gaining more votes and party support from people who are left but eye the party with suspicion.  The old dinosaurs of the SED and PDS, and the new dogmatic idealogues like Sarah, do not help in those efforts.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 03:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but is it really Dogma, or is it the old 80's buzzwords bringing back old feelings from that decades propaganda?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 04:06:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hard for me to say as I am not sure what the German buzzwords are, it's probably a little of both.  My personal opinion is that Wagenknecht in particular actually enjoys a little controversial demogoguery to add to her image.  I got the impression that she works on her image.  Just a gut reaction from one lecture.  Take it with a grain of salt.

But things like Bodo Ramelow, the head guy here in Thüringia is on record refusing to admit that the DDR was a repressive state.  Things like that I feel are not helpful.  Germany has come a long way in coming to terms with its Nazi past, I think Die Linke, if it is to be a strong and viable party, also needs to come to terms with its Stalinist past, admit the SED was a repressive mistake and reinforce that Democratic Socialism is just that, democratic.  If there were more Marxists like Bertolt Brecht, who was disgusted with Stalinism and refused to join any party, and more practical neo-marxist and practical socialists, I think the party would have more to offer people who are left of the corporatist SPD but wary of any taint of old style SED communism.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 07:57:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean by "Stalinist", exactly?  

As I understood it, the main difference between Wagenknecht and Ramelow is Ramelow's belief in compromise and creating a leftist alliance with the SPD, etc. which is larger and popular but more centrist, and trying to move things further to the left in that way, whereas Wagenknecht is more of an uncompromising ideological hardliner who thinks the best way for the left is to stand its ground firmly.  The way this was framed by the German news programme I was watching reminded me very much of the dynamics of the left in America.  The pragmatists v. the ideologues.  Frankly, I'm torn, realistically.  But I'm really digging Sahra.  I mean, really there is hardly a dearth of leftists ready to compromise their values at the drop of a hat, is there?  The world could probably use a few more honest to goodness commies!

You write that If there were more Marxists like Bertolt Brecht, who was disgusted with Stalinism and refused to join any party, and more practical neo-marxist and practical socialists, I think the party would have more to offer people who are left of the corporatist SPD but wary of any taint of old style SED communism.  It's interesting to me because I've just been reading Zizek, who was taking precisely the opposite position, arguing that "in spite of its horrors and failures, the "really existing Socialism" was the only political force that - for some decades, at least - seemed to pose an effective threat to the global rule of capitalism..." and that the Frankfurt School types may have been doing themselves no favors by unquestioningly accepting classical liberal democracy and by obsessing about Fascism.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:44:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Zizek, who was taking precisely the opposite position, arguing that "in spite of its horrors and failures, the "really existing Socialism" was the only political force that - for some decades, at least - seemed to pose an effective threat to the global rule of capitalism..."

There is truth in this, then again, 'real existing Socialism' generated its own demise in the form of a nomenclatura wanting to sustain its control over (at least part of) the means of production by going capitalist. In other words, 'real existing Socialism' not only has a checkered record, but doesn't look like a recipe for the future -- in that, the various stripes and schools of Western Eurocommunists might be closer.

Back to the Left Party's Kommunistische Plattform, I may agree with JD if he means stuff like wanting to whitewash Egon Krenz or the Berlin Wall. Then again, when Sahra says f.e. that she is against a blanket memorial for "victims of Stalinism" because such general language include fascists, I tend to agree that she has a point, and it does matter to debate history. But, yet again, there is too much looking backward - if you want to save communism as a progressive ideology, stop that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 at 12:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I may agree with JD if he means stuff like wanting to whitewash Egon Krenz or the Berlin Wall."

That is exactly what I mean.  For example, Herr Röllig who gives tours at a former Stasi prison in Berlin:

"Röllig said the Left Party, which emerged from the communist party that ruled East Germany to become a major electoral force in both eastern and western Germany, even sharing power in the city-state government of Berlin, has been propagating a warped view of the past. Left Party officials including Bodo Ramelow, the regional party leader in the eastern state of Thuringia, are on record denying that East Germany was an "unjust state.""

That was from a Big Orange diary on torture that I wrote, maybe I should repost it here.

In anycase, these sentiments are not condusive to growing the party, in my humble opinion.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 at 08:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then again, just like your quote indicates, the problem there might not be ideologues like Sahra but the dinosaurs among the pramaticists -- especially as they are holding some power.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 at 10:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess we'll see

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 at 12:39:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She is just too monolithic in her demagoguery and a little too hard-core for my taste.  I am one of the pragmatics which is why I like Ramelow, just I don't think ignoring or denying history is helpful.

There is political compromise and then there is political compromise.  I certainly feel that core party platform pillars should not be compromised otherwise the party loses its meaning, its soul if you will, and it becomes another SPD.  However, you have to work with others to get anything done.

I am more interested in appealing to more voters and seeing the party grow.  I don't think the hard left language appeals to the average Fritz on street.  What I think would me more effective is showing how left party platforms affect everyday life, work and family budget, etc.  I think it is better to take the platforms out of lofty slogans and instead approach it as what they can do for you and contrast them to, say, the FDP's platform.  That's kinda my practical philosophy as well, not just with other parties but what we can offer the man in the street.  Yet again, that doesn't mean compromise on core principles and beliefs.

lol, I am certainly more of a Frankfurt School type, but defer to them and Zizek as they are way smarter than I.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 at 05:00:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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