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Spanish nobles rebel over inheritance law


A group of grandees and other nobles have rebelled against a recent change in Spain's law which prevents a son from claiming the family title if he has an elder sister. They are demanding that the country's constitutional court strike the law down, as it may allow some women to claim titles retroactively from brothers or uncles who currently hold them.

They claim the law was tailor-made to suit a group of powerful women, including the designer Agatha Ruiz de la Prada, who claimed titles held by male relatives. Ruiz de la Prada claims the title of Marquess of Castelldosrius from an uncle who received it from his elder brother - skipping Ruiz de La Prada's now deceased mother.

"The law should not be retroactive. There will be fights in all the noble families because of this," said Miguel Temboury of the Spanish Nobles Association, a recently created conservative faction within Spain's 2,500-strong nobility.

That last bit is a bonus reason to support this law.

by paving on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bwahahaha.

What practical value is there to noble titles in Spain?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 01:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can get away with things normal people can't? A friend of mine in Munich had a neighbour who painted her rented apartment purple. She thought the landlord let her get away with this because of the "Gräfin" in front of her name...

It probably also helps in making restaurant reservations. Anything else?

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 01:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
None, but if you are born/socialised into the appropriate social network you will care because your status depends partly on that.

I am not sure such a law can be made retroactive.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 04:05:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
None,

So, why is it regulated?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 04:28:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Inheritance law?

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 04:41:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Inheritance of titles, or of belongings?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 04:58:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spanish nobles rebel over inheritance law | World news | The Guardian

The grandees have also tried to drag King Juan Carlos into the row. "We beg your attention and understanding in finding a solution that will resolve the violation perpetrated on us," they wrote to him. The rebels see the fact that male primogeniture survives in the royal family, regardless of the fact that the current king's oldest child is a daughter, as one reason for striking down the law.

"We feel the monarchy and the nobility should go hand-in-hand," said Mr Temboury. At a tense meeting of the Disputation of Grandees, as the official club for Spanish nobles is known, King Juan Carlos made it clear that he did not back the rebels. "The new regulations for noble titles should make you look to the future," he said in a letter to those congregated there in March.

King Juan Carlos's heir, Prince Felipe, has two daughters. The Spanish constitution would have to be changed if a son were born to allow the elder daughter to inherit the crown.

Let's see.

The Spanish Constitution "protects" certain sections (including the one on fundamental right and freedoms, and the chapter on the Crown) by 1) requiring a strong supermajority to reform them; 2) triggering a constitutional convention if "the principle of the reform" is approved by the Parliament. In other words, suppose Spain wanted to become a Republic and the Congress and Senate voted in favour of the proposed Constitutional reform by ample majorities. This would trigger a dissolution of the Parliament, and elections to a Constituent Parliament which would draft a new Constitution. This is eminiently sensible if you're going to change the form of the State. But now, the inheritance of the Crown is codified in the Constitution (also eminently sensible since Spain had 3 civil wars in the 19th century over a dynastic dispute involving... you guessed it, whether women could acceed to the Crown). Which means that removing the gender discrimination in royal succession (something everyone in Parliament agrees to) would trigger Constitutional Elections. Of course the new Constituent Parliament could just approve the exact same Constitution we have now, with amendments, but the fear is that it would not happen as the Spanish polity is more fractious now than in 1977 (less political violence on the streets, but more fractious nonetheless) and bad things would occur if the whole constitution were up for grabs.

So these male nobles who want to tie their inheritance to the Crown's are just obfuscating. The Spanish Constitution makes no mention of nobility titles: they are considered a matter for civil or even personal law.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 04:40:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ley 33/2006, de 30 de octubre, sobre igualdad del hombre y la mujer en el orden de sucesión de los títulos nobiliarios.Ley 33/2006 of 30 October, on the equality of men and women in the succession order of nobility titles.
Juan Carlos I,
Rey de España
Juan Carlos I
King of Spain
A todos los que la presente vieren y entendieren. Sabed:
Que las Cortes Generales han aprobado y Yo vengo en sancionar la siguiente Ley.
To all who would see and understand this.
Know:
That the Parliament has approved and I come to assent to the following law.

I'm just translating this because I find it picturesque...

EXPOSICIÓN DE MOTIVOSExposition of motives
Actualmente la posesión de un título nobiliario no otorga ningún estatuto de privilegio, al tratarse de una distinción meramente honorífica cuyo contenido se agota en el derecho a usarlo y a protegerlo frente a terceros.At present the possession of a nobility title does not give any privileged status, being a merely honorary distinction whose content extends only to the right to use it and protect it from third persons.

A nobility title is not unlike a trademark, then. Now, why is this regulated?

En la concesión de dignidades nobiliarias de carácter perpetuo, a su naturaleza honorífica hay que añadir la finalidad de mantener vivo el recuerdo histórico al que se debe su otorgamiento, razón por la cual la sucesión en el título queda vinculada a las personas que pertenezcan al linaje del beneficiario de la merced. Este valor puramente simbólico es el que justifica que los títulos nobiliarios perpetuos subsistan en la actual sociedad democrática, regida por el principio de igualdad de todos los ciudadanos ante la Ley.In the concession of nobility honours in perpetuity, apart from the honorary nature one must add the goal of keeping alive the historical memory which caused the award, the reason for which the succession to the title is tied to the people belonging to the lineage of the recipient of the honour. This purely symbolic value is what justifies that nobility titles in perpetuity subsist in the current democratic society, ruled by the principle of equality of all citizens before the law.

Okay? We keep nobility titles because there is no reason to go through the trouble of abolishing them. But they are purely honorary and equality before the law is supreme.

Sin embargo, las normas que regulan la sucesión en los títulos nobiliarios proceden de la época histórica en que la nobleza titulada se consolidó como un estamento social privilegiado, y contienen reglas como el principio de masculinidad o preferencia del varón sin duda ajustadas a los valores del antiguo régimen, pero incompatibles con la sociedad actual en la cual las mujeres participan plenamente en la vida política, económica, cultural y social.However, the norms regulating succession in nobility titles come from a historical time when titled nobility was consilidated as a socially privileged social stratum, and they contain rules such as the principle of masculinity or preference of the male no doubt adjusted to the values of the old regime, but incompatible with the current society in which women take full part in political, economic, cultural and social life.
......
DISPOSICIÓN TRANSITORIA ÚNICA.Single transitional provision
En la aplicación de la presente Ley a los títulos nobiliarios concedidos antes de su vigencia se observarán las siguientes normas:In application of the current law to nobility titles awarded before this law came into force, the following norms shall be observed:
  1. Las transmisiones del título ya acaecidas no se reputarán inválidas por el hecho de haberse realizado al amparo de la legislación anterior.
  1. Transmissions which took place already will not be considered invalid because they were made under the previous law.

Not retroactive, then.

Conclusion: The Guardian has its head up its arse.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 05:01:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
King Juan Carlos's heir, Prince Felipe, has two daughters. The Spanish constitution would have to be changed if a son were born to allow the elder daughter to inherit the crown.
Needless to say, everyone is hoping that this won't happen. Should a son be born before the Constitution is amended, the constitutional amendment would be postponed until he accedes to the Crown in order to avoid dynastic claims. People were hoping the constutition would be amended before the Crown Prince had his first child, but it couldn't be (due to the fractiousness I mentioned above).

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 05:27:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
The grandees have also tried to drag King Juan Carlos into the row. "We beg your attention and understanding in finding a solution that will resolve the violation perpetrated on us," they wrote to him.
The King signed the law itself, you dunces!
"The new regulations for noble titles should make you look to the future," [the King] said in a letter to those congregated there in March.
What a shock.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 09:20:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
as it may allow some women to claim titles retroactively from brothers or uncles who currently hold them.

Isn't it a basic legal principle that you can't legislate retroactively?

Though indeed we broke just that principle when we reformed our constitution 35 years ago to make the oldest royal child the next in line, instead of the oldest male. That meant that the crown prince was turned into a prince and his big sister was made crown princess.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 07:40:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spanish Constitution, Article 9,3
3. La Constitución garantiza el principio de legalidad, la jerarquía normativa, la publicidad de las normas, la irretroactividad de las disposiciones sancionadoras no favorables o restrictivas de derechos individuales, la seguridad jurídica, la responsabilidad y la interdicción de la arbitrariedad de los poderes públicos.
seems to ban some sort of retroactivity ("irretroactividad") but it seems to me to talk only about punishment ("sancionadoras"), not about civil law. Am I right? (Google translation is useless here...).
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 07:49:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, you're right.

But the Spanish legislators are wary of burdening the courts with the cases that would result from retroactive measures.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 09:17:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
DISPOSICIÓN TRANSITORIA ÚNICA.Single transitional provision
En la aplicación de la presente Ley a los títulos nobiliarios concedidos antes de su vigencia se observarán las siguientes normas:In application of the current law to nobility titles awarded before this law came into force, the following norms shall be observed:
  1. Las transmisiones del título ya acaecidas no se reputarán inválidas por el hecho de haberse realizado al amparo de la legislación anterior.
  1. Transmissions which took place already will not be considered invalid because they were made under the previous law.

Not retroactive, then.

Starvid:
That meant that the crown prince was turned into a prince and his big sister was made crown princess.
Barbarians! It's a good thing you Swedes are too cold-blooded for this to lead to something like the  Carlist Wars
The Carlist Wars in Spain were the last major European civil wars in which pretenders fought to establish their claim to a throne. Several times during the period from 1833 to 1876 the Carlists -- followers of Infante Carlos (later Carlos V) and his descendants -- rallied to the cry of "God, Country, and King" and fought for the cause of Spanish tradition (Legitimism and Catholicism) against the liberalism, and later the republicanism, of the Spanish governments of the day.


The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 09:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or the Hundred Years' War...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 09:28:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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