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Exactly. Asking for a raise in the retirement age currently is an own goal for the unions.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This isn't just the unions.  Every organisation I know of that represents older people in the UK is part of this campaign.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:15:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's still an own goal.

The difference between wanting to keep working and having to keep working isn't as obvious as it might be, and will likely become even less obvious once this legislation passes.

It's standard Jobs™ rhetoric. The problem isn't the retirement age, it's the way that the concept of Jobs™ is used to frame the issue.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's evidenced with statements like this, also from Age Concern website:

New government figures out today show that unemployment of those over 50 is rising at more than double the rate of any other age group.1 Age Concern is warning that older workers are facing a dual blow of rising unemployment and forced retirement, which could make them amongst the biggest `job-cut casualties' of the forthcoming recession.

Older workers were disproportionately affected by job cuts in the last two recessions and today's figures show they look set to again be amongst the hardest hit groups as unemployment rises. Research from the charity shows this is a huge concern - half of workers aged 55+ are worried they are more at risk of losing their job because of their age and almost nine out of 10 people think it is harder for older jobseekers to get a job.

People shouldn't be forced to carry on working because they can't afford not to.  I agree that the framing of 'jobs' is an issue and one that isn't being addressed effectively in the way that the campaign for abolishing the default retirement age is being run.

But this review is being brought forward to look at the mandatory retirement age, people will argue for abolishing it, and the Government seems open to that but perhaps not for the right reasons.  There will be a consultation no doubt, so who would like to help me with a response to set out why and how 'jobs' are framed in the wrong way and put this forward within the context of the default retirement age?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd concentrate on the pensions angle and less on the Jobs™ angle. What's needed is a push back on pensions provision - increased returns, decreased insecurity (because of random speculation), government reassurance that both public and private pensions are protected in the same way that we've seen banking speculation being back-stopped and protected.

Similarly, unemployment provision can be redesigned to be less punitive. Older people can be encouraged to use their skills for training and transition support, which would be a half-way house between their old jobs and retirement. They can be moved towards self-employment of various kinds.

And so on.

The point is that age discrimination, pensions provision, and voluntary extended working are all separate issues. So is skills loss, and so is the usual employer need to cut costs by hiring teenagers who work for pocket money.

You could reframe this with evidence that older employees provide a better overall return because they're more skilled, more effective, and more reliable. Getting rid of them is a false economy.

This isn't just rhetoric. Organisations have been destroyed by short-sighted skills loss.

It needs a packaged push-back, not a single-issue pushback.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:23:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd concentrate on the pensions angle and less on the Jobs™ angle. What's needed is a push back on pensions provision

  1. increased returns

  2. decreased insecurity

  3. government reassurance that both public and private pensions are protected in the same way that we've seen banking speculation being back-stopped and protected.

In other words, better public pensions, paid for out of general revenue. In a market-based system, 1) and 2) are mutually exclusive, and 3) amounts to nothing better than privatising profits and socialising risk.

Provide decent public pensions. And if people then want to set aside more money (which should not be tax deductible, by the way, any more than buying ordinary securities should), then they get to carry the full risk that goes with that if they put it in anything that is riskier than German sovereign debt.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 03:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The unions have mostly forgotten that a social contract exists.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:15:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not the case in Wales (or NI if I understand) where social partnership working between unions, business and the public sector is strong.

But the Welsh Assembly can't do anything on primary legislation such as this - nonetheless if genuine partnership working existed with the UK Government, we'd have much less to fear on matters like this.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:22:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I know it, the social contract is f.e. one between generations.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:25:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
as in the social contract that I give up some of my freedoms in order to receive basic protection and security from the state?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:36:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes;that would be one between the People and the State.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:40:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I ask In Wales: is simply raising retirement age the demand? From the quoted text, it appears they call for a relativisation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure what you mean by relativisation?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:15:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
demanding work from your relatives? ;)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:21:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Less strict application -- not sure what other word to use, ("optional-isation?")

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:38:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I see. No they are not demanding the raising of the retirement age but for people to not be forced to retire if they want to keep working at 65 and above.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(of course, the next step will be, "look, there are plenty of people working happily until 67 ! Let's all do that and raise the retirement age")

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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