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Again, choice.  I don't believe that people should have to work 48 hours a week if they do work. Certainly not more.

Flexible working is hugely important and under utilised.  As I mention elsewhere, a more open minded approach to introducing part time working in higher level posts would provide better opportunities for women with children who wish to work part time (and disabled people, and older people or anyone with caring responsibilities), all groups who are disadvantaged by the current ethos on the labour market and employment.

And our Governments should get a good kicking if they tried to reduce the pension age - who are we electing?  What kind of a job are we (socialists generally) doing to let people gain power and keep on shafting every vulnerable section of society?

I did raise a query of why now does the Government see the case for removing the default retirement age and perhaps that is due to Peter Mandelson's eyes shining with pound signs as he figures out a new way to squeeze more work and money out of people.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:33:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They should, but they won't. And even if they do, what difference will it make? No one votes on a single issue.

I think the mistake here is single-issue activism. The problem is that people are being forced to consider extended working because existing pension provision is too poor. The answer isn't extended working, it's better and more flexible pension provision.

People who will receive 30-50% pensions are going to be much less interested in extended working than people who will be forced into poverty even though they've been working since 18 or 21.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:47:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A basic thing to always remember, as Coluche said, is that people don't need work, they need money.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:53:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A basic thing to always remember, as Coluche said, is that people don't need work, they need money.

Which sounds clever but isn't, once you take into account the social functions that work fulfils for most people. Having a job is key to self-esteem for a lot of people, for a start. How many die within a couple of years of retirement because they no longer know what to do with themselves?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 10:10:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's only a half truth, obviously. But the question right now was that of those people wanting to work because they didn't get a big enough pension.

As for the problems our societies so atomised that the only way to have social relationships (and socially recognised value) is through employment, well, that's one for another thread. Possibly a much more important ones.

However I looked recently at death age tables and didn't notice any uptick after retirement age - probability of death was rising exponentially from 20 to 70, and getting significant right around 55. Do people die a few years after retiring, or do we interpret deaths that happen right after retirement as caused by inactivity ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 01:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"In the labour field, law creates freedom, its absence slavery".

If you give the possibility for some employees to work more that (35/48) hours a week, they will have to work more. Because their employers will force them. Because they'll lower their wages to the point they need the money. Because those that don't will be considered lazy. The same goes for the pension and retirement ages.

It seems you are over applying the discrimination framework : old age isn't the same thing as disability or maternity. Forcing young workers to pay for the pensions of the elderly should mean the possibility of constraints on pension earners.

Our governments should get a good kicking if they try to reduce minimum pensions - but currently they don't and they won't. So let's not give them ammunitions to make it easier for them. Unions have got to be realists, not idealists.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:51:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Old age isn't the same thing, but if people are fit enough and want to work, there is a case for using flexible working as a way of achieving that but my point was that flexible working has wider benefits anyway.  And that fits with the way that work and jobs are framed.  Why does the assumption exist that reduced hours, part time work and job shares can't be introduced for high level jobs? Why is there an expectation that people work themselves into the ground to be able to advance their career? Why is work-life balance not given enough priority?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:05:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You forget the labour supply aspect : there is a case for, and a case against allowing the over 65 in the labour force.

As long as careers are determined by the employer, and as long as careers are the only way to the higher paying jobs, the employer is going to require as much investment from the workers as possible, and will find people willing to give that investment. The employer doesn't give a damn about work-life balance. As long as he finds enough employees willing to give up their free time, flexible working time won't develop ; as long as the employer-employee relationship is one of subordination, it is the employer calling the shots.

To change that, you need to change the balance of power between employee*s* and employer*s*. As long as there is an oversupply of labour, the balance is in favour of the employers - compare with say Crazy Horse or Sven, who have very rare and sought after competencies and could easily negotiate terms of employment if they were to seek a permanent "job".

As long as there isn't full employment, increasing the labour supply is a bad idea and needs to be justified by gross discrimination - sex or ethnicity are gross, asking over 65 to leave the labour supply to get their pension isn't.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:41:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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