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... a realist?

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jul 17th, 2009 at 07:07:01 PM EST
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Not in international relations, but in domestic politics, yes, in the original Machiavellian sense of having a knack for identifying pragmatic self interest.
by santiago on Fri Jul 17th, 2009 at 09:01:17 PM EST
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But that's not the sense of realpolitic that the EU needs ... what the EU needs is a "realpolitic" that is founded on reality. The short term media magic spin cycle that sweeps the ongoing problems under the rug will do no good for the long term interests of the EU.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jul 17th, 2009 at 09:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite.

The right calls it realism. Or realpolitik.

The real word for it is psychosis.

That whole self interest schtick only works if you can model reality accurately. If you're flailing around like an emo kid on a bad day, lying to everyone, getting into fights for the sake of it, and generally acting like a hormonal teen nightmare with a shit eating grin and a sharp suit, this is possibly not the pancakes we're looking for.

Someone who can deal with reality effectively might be a better choice.  

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jul 17th, 2009 at 10:02:34 PM EST
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Realism means assuming that actors work to maximize self-interest.  Realpolitik assumes that nation-states are the relevant actors in international relations and that power is the element that each is trying to maximize relative to others.  Obviously, the EU project denies that model -- nation-states AND other collective institutions are the relevant actors and power is but one element of interest among many.  
by santiago on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 10:20:24 AM EST
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Realism means assuming that actors work to maximize self-interest.

This is as much of a FAIL™ in international relations as it is in economics.

Thanks for playing, anyway.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 11:05:02 AM EST
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Well, that's the problem with psychosis - you think you're maximising self-interest, when in reality you're just acting out a death wish.

I'm sure Hitler thought he was a great patriot, who was totally dedicated to maximising Germany's glory. Unfortunately, being a psychopath, he destroyed his Germany and himself instead.

So can we please stop pretending that 'maximising self interest' actually means anything non-crazy?

The kindest thing you can say about it is that it's inherently pro-cyclical. The mood swings when reality catches up with it don't seem to be fun.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 03:53:11 PM EST
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santiago:
Realism means assuming that actors work to maximize self-interest.  Realpolitik assumes that nation-states are the relevant actors in international relations and that power is the element that each is trying to maximize relative to others.

that's our tone! a poster child for exactly why that approach leads to guaranteed Trouble.

that whole machiavelli adulation really served the neocons well, huh?

power-over instead of power-with, that is the basest of lower common denominators of human behaviour and political skills, and while it may have been the modus operandi of so many leaders through euro-history, there's no reason at all to assume that re-pursuing this bleakly evil vision of human affairs will do aught but mire us in the muck we spent much of the last few millennia roiling around in.

which is why characters like TB should be anathema to the future EU leadership, as emblematic of the nakedly expedient, rank opportunist, selfishly short-sighted wrong way to go about things on any level, be it matters personal or of state.

as for electing a saint, that's effing hilarious in its improbability, they're thin on the political ground, and if they exist at all, they would fess up to what they did, not run to swaddle their consciences under the vatican's seamy petticoats, while claiming to be blessed by faith.

the only thing TB ever believed in was that he was immune to consequences because of the intensity of his will-to-power.

he is the epitome of all that's worst and most hypocritical in the 'perfidious' part of shakespeare's famous quote, in fact he redefines the term.

like obama, he flew to grace on wings of rhetoric, and obama will be just as denigrated if he continues to appease all that's nastiest in anglo-atlanticist politics, ie bankstas and the MIC.

the harder they come, the harder they fall, one and all.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 08:01:36 PM EST
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Not in the least.  But I was responding to Fran's very flippant suggestion that being a hypocrite and a murderer both describes Tony Blair and are not desirable attributes for European leaders.  Forgetting TB for a minute, does a search for other leaders, present or historical, find any who have successfully united disparate parties on an international level and not had those same charges placed on them by armchair politicos.
by santiago on Sun Jul 19th, 2009 at 01:15:25 AM EST
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The fact that most people in positions of power turn out to be assholes does not necessarily mean that one should pick somebody one knows to be an asshole for a position of power.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 19th, 2009 at 07:55:36 AM EST
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LOL

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 19th, 2009 at 08:34:58 AM EST
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What the EU needs is someone capable of uniting disparate factions.  That is the essence of the EU project.  I don't know that Tony is the right person for the job at all, but if the criticism against him is that he knows hot to dissimulate and knows what its like to have blood on his hands, I suggest that those are possibly positive traits rather than negatives.
by santiago on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 10:12:52 AM EST
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"What the EU needs is someone capable of uniting disparate factions."

Exactly, and also exactly the capability that Blair does not have.

As for "knows what its like to have blood on his hands", Blair has gained about as much knowledge of that as I have from playing RTS war games. He has ordered men to their deaths, but has he ever taken the time to look honestly and unflinchingly at what he wrought? You and I might agree that Blair has blood on his hands - I very much doubt that he does. And rest assured, he firmly believes he is right.

An ability to lie is definitely a negative trait if it is used to extensively lie to oneself.

by det on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 10:33:12 AM EST
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As you say. In power, Tony only knows
  1. crushing all opposition (something he won't be able to as merely a de-facto permament chairman),
  2. building top-down power structures below him (something he won't be able to do either),
  3. be a nice puppy to various masters (be them the USA, Murdoch, or financial or industrial lobbies) he deems either too powerful to confront or part of an exclusive club he would like to join (something we don't need in a top EU official).

...furthermore, a warrior uniting sovereign heads of states and governments, what a ridiculous idea.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 02:34:42 PM EST
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But most of all, utterly destroying his party.

And it's a pattern. While Saint Tony has been the Extra Secret Super Special Hot Sauce Quartet Envoy to the Middle East, the Gaza situation has devolved into naked barbarism and atrocity, and Israel is - still - seriously considering an attack on Iran.

Does Europe want someone so likely to destroy the EU?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jul 19th, 2009 at 09:10:17 PM EST
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... if the conclusion is to be "Tony is the right person to bring people together", which is whether it is well understood by all parties that he is an able liar and willing to have blood on his hands in pursuit of what he sees as his own interest.

That common knowledge undermines rather than strengthens his capacities for bringing people together ... setting aside the leap in the dark regarding believing that he has changed his ways and will be trying to bring people together.

After specifying that he is an able liar, we are supposed to believe that he has reversed his modus operandi by 180 degrees on his say so?

Indeed, even if he seriously intends and is 100% committed to changing his modus operandi ... he is entirely untested in that role.

Its like picking someone for the starting XI in the Ashes because he's the star pitcher for the Olympic Baseball team.

Better pick someone who has some runs on the board for that particular contest.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 02:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well he's only shown an ability to unite people in distaste.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 08:37:48 PM EST
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santiago:
he knows hot to dissimulate and knows what its like to have blood on his hands, I suggest that those are possibly positive traits rather than negatives.

thanks for sharing, that's some belief system you've got going there, lol!

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jul 18th, 2009 at 08:05:01 PM EST
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Not my belief system.  But I'm not getting anywhere on this thread but knee-jerk reactions to presumed ideas rather than what is actually said, so I'm through.  chao.
by santiago on Sun Jul 19th, 2009 at 01:24:30 AM EST
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santiago:
Not my belief system.  But I'm not getting anywhere on this thread but knee-jerk reactions to presumed ideas rather than what is actually said,

i don't think you're convincing anyone here of your points of view, but you have a lot of knowledge and time to share it, helping to provide some interesting counter-arguments, thickening the mix, as it were, and certainly helping avoid any notion ET is a cosy corner of choral communion.

to me the fault line occurs when you say things are true, but you don't necessarily believe them, which is like trying to reverse engineer glenn beck's brain.

(he thinks it's important to believe in something even though it's wrong, hmmm, you could say these two approaches are halves of a whole.)

because everyone else in this discussion, it appears to me, (and everywhere else at this blog for that matter, is intent on sharing things because we believe them to be true.)

by the way, i do have a life, thanks.

although you will get the the occasional 4 by throwing insulting comments my way, i'm guessing that's not really why you're here, lol.

enjoy your stay, and thanks for helping to catalise the discussion through your comments here why it is we have such a strong desire not to see Tony Blair get any more rewarded for his actions than he is already.

ansi...

ciao

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jul 24th, 2009 at 08:59:03 AM EST
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