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They're probably worth a diary. But note how he complains that this or that is "common sense".

The problem with physics is that the metaphors used in popular science are a poor substitute for the mathematics and this person is very confused because his understanding of the metaphors leads them to inferences which are just wrong.

The problem is one of cognitive linguistics, not of physics. How Lakoffian of me.

There is also the perceived arrogance of physicists who just tell them to go read some book or other and brush them off. The problem is that what is needed is to pick apart this person's mental models, take them down and rebuild new ones so that he stops complaining about "common sense"; that this is exceedingly difficult to do without the mathematics; and that, if you're going to use mathematics, there are books out there that do a better job of marrying mathematics and intuition than your average physicist can do in an off-the-cuff conversation.

I hope that makes sense.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 06:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This reminds me of something Pratchett wrote about the issue, that we shouldn't really be surprised if the deepest mysteries of the univserse doesn't make any "sense" to a species whose brain for the vast majority of its existence was mainly preoccupied with telling the other apes were the fruit were. The fact that we understand so much as we do is a marvel. And with "understand" I don't refer to being able to crunch the numbers, but actually get an understanding of the concept.

I know that light is both a wave and a particle. I can do the numbers on that stuff. I've done the experiment when you shoot laser light at a wall and get a fuzzy red point on the wall, and then put a grating in front of it and instead get a number of separare sharp points spread all over the bloody wall. Even if I understand the process, it still doesn't make any kind of sense to me.

Even things we usually think makes sense, like gravity, is often more that we've gotten used to the senselessness rather than actually understanding it. It took years and years for me to understand gravity even from a Newtonian point of view. I had my apple moment when lying on my back on a counter with my head down the drain, observing the water running "upwards". I was actually not trying to get a deeper understanding of the universe, I was just thirsty and drunk. But there you go.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 07:13:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to have to write that diary on quantum mechanics and ontology, am I not?

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 07:27:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 11:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks, good explanation.

bridging these disciplines is very important for the future of science and enthusiasm to learn it, i think.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 07:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What "disciplines" are being "bridged" here? Physics and Common Sense? Bridging them means to learn about the physical world thereby acquiring "physical intuition" which supersedes "common sense" like modern physics supersedes Aristotelian physics.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 01:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Comment responses
The problem is one of cognitive linguistics, not of physics

there are two right there, if i'm not mistaken.

then there was your comment about ontology and QT, two more...

or aren't they disciplines?

you could have just said: 'it'll never happen, unless you do the math homework first', but you tried to help brodix understand why his questions were mis-premised, and in doing so, helped me inch forward.

sometimes even realising how ignorant one is, is a kind of knowledge, (how valuable i guess depends...)

;)

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 05:07:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm glad you think that was a helpful response because to me it feels like hitting brodix over the head with "you're not even wrong" repeatedly and then telling him to go read a book, like the other physicists say when they brush him off. Hence the 'ugh'.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 05:21:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, to me it was more like you're tapping him on the shoulder, going, 'you need to fully understand X before you can race ahead and jump to conclusions about Y.'

but i went to the agonist to groove on possible further discussion of your mega comment, and it's not there.

°çéé&&%$!

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 05:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll sit with the guy and teach him general relativity from scratch - but I won't entertain a debate with a layperson on whether the standard cosmological model is "logical" in "common-sense" terms. It is not, period, and that doesn't tell you the theory is suspect, but common sense is flawed.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 05:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well, it does, actually, not to me, but it makes sense!

just kidding...

good stuff. gracias.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 05:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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