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The reasons that are trotted out seem irrelevant: they seem like post-hoc justifications.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 05:58:16 AM EST
In that respect, what is peculiar about NATO advocates?

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 06:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, nothing, except I really can't find my way into their mindset.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 06:24:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's peculiar about that mindset? There are others you can't get into, surely.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 06:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I can normally dream up a set of axioms in which the point of view makes sense: I think the problem here might be that I'm trying to avoid attributing some unpleasant axioms to the Atlanticist crowd.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 06:30:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that's what I suspect too, and it speaks highly of your sense of diplomacy.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 06:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this paragraph really cuts to the core of the assumptions underpinning the NATO fan club (my bold):

At the same time, Europe is getting increasingly dependent on the US' ability to provide security and serve as the guarantor of peace. A more assertive and less predictable Russia reminds Europeans that their lives would be much less convenient if it wasn't for the US nuclear umbrella. Issues such as Iran, piracy, and Palestine are of vital interest to Europeans but rely on a strong US to be resolved. Even the European Union's own attempt to become a producer of security, the European Security and Defense Policy, has proven to be largely dependent on NATO and American assets. If Washington, for a sheer lack of resources, is forced to concentrate its diminished assets on a few select hot issues, Europe, incapable of defending itself, could end up being a significantly less comfy place to live in.

I'll take a stab at translating the bolded parts:

  • A more assertive and less predictable Russia: Russia is a threat that can (should) be faced down militarily (just like in the good old days of Ronnie Raygun and Star Wars).

  • the US nuclear umbrella: The Americans are willing to defend their allies. The French are not.

  • Iran: The State Department's bogeyman of the week is a real and serious threat to the continued survival of Western CivilisationTM. See the bullet about Russia for how to deal with threats.

  • piracy: Europe cannot police the sea lanes (or even our own territory) without American help.

  • Palestine: The Muslims in the Middle East are a Threat To Western CivilisationTM. See above for how to respond to threats.

  • rely on a strong US to be resolved: Europe cannot defend our interests without American help (see above) and the US can do no wrong, except for not being strong enough in confronting the Existential Threats To Western CivilisationTM, and blinking first in the spaghetti-western-style staredown that this reduces foreign policy to.

So basically I think it sums up to a lot of [Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert] and [Neocon Moment Alert] with an extra helping of Conventional Wisdom on the subject of what constitutes European strategic interests and what the threats to said interests are.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jul 9th, 2009 at 02:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and [Starvid's Rysskräck Technology™] . Lots and lots of [Starvid's Rysskräck Technology™] .

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jul 9th, 2009 at 02:08:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a case of concern-trolling. The entire argument is basically 'drafting a new strategic concept for NATO offers Europe a chance to better service the US'.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 07:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
they seem like post-hoc justifications

Assuming this has a kernel of truth and I, for one, suspect it does; the question becomes: What are these ad-hoc justifications trying to prevent?


Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

by RogueTrooper on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 08:20:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RogueTrooper:
What are these ad-hoc justifications trying to prevent?

a new frame? one that says we need NATO like a hole in the head?

one that acknowledges the interactivity of europe with the new russia, where people travel freely and we enjoy each others' cultural heritage?

a far cry from the kruschev days, when russia was pretty evil.

and yes we are grateful, but we don't need a crutch anymore, we can walk now, and our way of doing business with the rest of the world is a lot less pushy and outright belligerent than 'captain' america's.

in a thread full of good observations, Jerome's rings the truest, imo, that the EU countries are props for the mighty will of america, to make it seem less unilteral, the rest is just hogwash spin.

~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jul 8th, 2009 at 09:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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