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The US spends two to three times as much on its military than the EU combined. But the EU outspends Russia by a factor of six, and Russia, China and India (the other three mature great powers today) combined by about a factor of two [statistics from Wikipedia, 2006 numbers, nominal exchange rates].

In other words, if Europe cannot defend our territorial integrity, it is not for a lack of money thrown at the problem.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jul 11th, 2009 at 07:09:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That they spend so much already, and don't have any of global capability of action that the US does,  actually complicates the argument for going US-free in Europe, rather than supports it.  It means that current EU expenditures exist at their level because the global flank is already covered by American infrastructure -- governments in places like Iran worry about hostilities against French ships or other assets because they know the French can use American logistical resources to hit back, if needed.  That would have to be replaced in a go-it-alone Europe -- Europe would be judged as politically weaker by other powers if it did not replace that infrastructure.

(I mean, wow, for all its failures to militarily impose peace and good governance in Iraq and Afghanistan, the US did manage to completely take out the governments and military forces of two large countries in a matter of weeks. That's actually pretty astounding.  Like I said up thread, even once-mighty Russia couldn't do that in tiny Chechnya, a region 30 times smaller in population than Afghanistan.)

by santiago on Sat Jul 11th, 2009 at 07:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iraq was at the tail end of a decade of sanctions. Not only were there no WMDs, there was barely an army.

Afghanistan defeated the Indians, the British, the Russians, and is well on its way to defeating the US. When there's hardly much of a government to start with, blowing up the capital hardly counts for anything.

The most spectacular feature of US military intervention since WWII is its almost endless capacity for failure.

The US can just about handle tiny impoverished states in its back yard. It's fairly good at interfering in other countries through 'covert diplomacy' psyops, and economic oppression.

But as a military power, it's a joke. The US failed in Korea, failed in Vietnam and Cambodia, failed in Iraq and is failing in Afghanistan and against Somalian pircay. In any conventional confrontation with a reasonably sized enemy, the US military machine will be cut to ribbons.

santiago:

governments in places like Iran worry about hostilities against French ships or other assets because they know the French can use American logistical resources to hit back, if needed.

Why would Iran open hostilities against French ships?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jul 11th, 2009 at 07:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why would Iran attack French ships? I don't know. Why would Iran arrest employees of the British consulate?  People get upset about things, and disputes over power occur.  French ships, like the ships or other assets of any country, have been attacked by foreign powers for as long as their have been countries and ships. Shit happens, as they say. The question for people like the French is whether such kinds of attacks have been fewer or greater during "Pax Americana."  And is it because of American dominance of world affairs, or despite it?
by santiago on Sat Jul 11th, 2009 at 08:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you don't want people to confiscate your ships and other assets, it helps if you're not supporting fascist dictators in their country or stealing their resources.

Not that Europe couldn't mount a potentially heavy-handed economic retaliation in such an event, even if we can't terror bomb their capital. International power is not measured simply by the amount of powder you can burn over somebody's cities.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 02:03:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From what I've been able to decipher, Russia did precisely the same thing to Chechnya as the Americans did to Afghanistan.

And it worked precisely as well too.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 02:01:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually no.  Russia was military defeated, outright, in the first Chechen war to the military forces of the tiny region, and the rebellious government remained in power.  Only after the second war was a semblance of federal sovereignty returned to Russia.  The second war, three years later, only came about because Chechnya tried to invade a neighboring Russian province and expand its power by taking more Russia territory. Russia was, however, militarily successful in Georgia last year, although its purpose was not to remove the Georgian government.

By comparison, since the American survival of the cold war, the US has militarily defeated Panama in 1990, Iraq in 1991, Serbia in 1999, the Taliban government in Afghanistan in 2001, and the government of Sadaam Hussein in 2003. America's military defeats so far really only include its small operation in Somalia.  In Iraq and Afghanistan, the jury is still out on the new military missions of supporting new and sustainable governance institutions, but with the the strengthening of Nouri al-Maliki's clout since Obama's declaration to withdraw forces earlier, that mission actually looks brighter now under Obama's strategy than it did a short time ago under Bush.

by santiago on Sun Jul 12th, 2009 at 04:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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