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No, I'm arguing that we all know know what well being is, but that doesn't mean you can measure it without defining it in a way that biases the results of your metrics.  The very idea of a metric for happiness (or of beauty, or love, etc.) is even more intellectually dishonest and politically charged than simply stating that that one assumes that income is an acceptable, if imperfect, metric for well-being and arguing for policies that increase total income, which is what mainstream economics does.

This does not rely on "total relativity."  It relies on being honest with yourself about what can possibly be known and determined from observation and the language of mathematics and what cannot because a concept is too abstract.

by santiago on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 11:43:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both are political choices, but one, GDP, pretends not to be.

I'd argue for a basket of metrics and qualitative measures, personally. Then we can fight over how we prioritise each instead of blindly worshipping GDP.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 11:51:06 AM EST
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The basket of metrics is exactly how economists really do work in policymaking and policy advice. In the US, a basket of data sources is used, for example, by the National Bureau of Economics Research to determine when recessions began and end, not just GDP. And GDP is often only a minor factor in determining monetary policy compared to the 300-odd other data streams used by central bank economists and governors.  GDP, however, is one of the most used indicators in political discourse over economic development and trade policy around the world, which has lot more to do with non-economists misusing information than with economists who actually do research and publish academic papers on such topics.
by santiago on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 12:41:49 PM EST
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santiago:
GDP, however, is one of the most used indicators in political discourse over economic development and trade policy around the world, which has lot more to do with non-economists misusing information than with economists who actually do research and publish academic papers on such topics.
Economists' silence signals approval.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 01:16:25 PM EST
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But I don't know that it's true that they're silent. It seems more like a case of selective reporting from the gatekeepers of media.
by santiago on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 01:43:57 PM EST
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The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and lousy excuses.

Go talk to a biologist about "selective reporting" in the media vis-a-vis Creationism. Then go talk to the people at the NCSE about it, and they'll give you the definitive counter-crank handbook. They wrote it.

If a handful of geeks running a think tank on a shoestring budget can defeat the most lavishly funded science cranks this side of the Space Shuttle, then surely the economics profession can hardly claim as an excuse that penetrating the mainstream discourse is "too hard."

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 06:09:06 PM EST
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Broken link to NCSE, fixed.

Maybe we should try to get the NCSE involved in Economics...

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 14th, 2009 at 04:10:54 AM EST
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The different measures in whatever basket the current economic mainstream uses all come from a model that assumes consumer sovereignty and non-tranferability of utility functions - consequently only a few of those measures will provide post hoc amelioration of the pervasive imbalances this model introduces.

You and Colman are talking about radically different baskets.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 01:28:00 PM EST
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And how come we never hear the bloody economists out correcting all these idiots misusing things? Where the hell are they? What are they doing when their work is being misused and their field appropriated for political gain?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 01:43:16 PM EST
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You hear from Krugman alot, as well as Stiglitz, and they have a platform that most other economists don't because they are famous names that carry weight with the media. Ken Arrow (not a leftist at all) used to do that job to some extent when he was younger as well, as does Amartya Sen. That's four Nobel winners right there. You also have up and coming celebrities such as Schiller (of the Case-Schiller housing index) and Brad deLong, not to mention prolific economic authors such as Galbraith in the previous generation. All of them are well within the mainstream of the profession in their academic work. (Although Galbraith, an agricultural economist by training, received a lot of criticism from other economists for being too light weight because of the amount of popular publications compared to serious academic ones.)  
by santiago on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 02:00:13 PM EST
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Krugman blog: Unpersons (July 8, 2009)
One of the mysteries of the way issues are covered in much of the news media is how certain views get ruled "out of the mainstream" and just don't get covered -- even when many well-informed people hold those views.

...

And here's the thing: in this case, there isn't any hidden evidence -- you can't argue that the CIA knows something the rest of us don't. And the voices calling for stronger stimulus are, may I say, sorta kinda respectable -- several Nobelists in the bunch, plus a large fraction of the prominent economists who predicted the housing crash before it happened.

But somehow, the pro-stimulus people are unpersons. Who makes these decisions?

You're in a way in agreement with Krugman but where both you and Krugman disagree with some of us here on ET is on the need to call the pseudoscientific claptrap that passes for economics policy debate for what it is. Krugman doesn't go far enough in that direction. The younger Galbraith does, as do people like Roubini. It gets to the point where the economic profession, including large swathes of academia, is actively supporting an inequitable economic regime supported by a pseudocientific market economics religion, and Krugman's criticism is too mild.

The stronger the critic, however, the less serious they appear. It is a real problem.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 14th, 2009 at 02:27:08 AM EST
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And if I were to put a geographical categorization on where economists appear too cozy being orthodox consultants to capitalism rather than critical analysts of it, I think the European forums, such as the influential CEPR might bear as much, if not more, blame than their counterparts on the west coasts of the Atlantic, at least during the present crisis.
by santiago on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 02:16:16 PM EST
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Your argument remains odd.

Firstly, economists don't have any problem at all trying to use subjective intangibles like 'confidence' to quantify economic health. How different is 'confidence' from 'well-being'? The only difference I can see is that one is used regularly in economic reporting, and the other isn't.

Secondly, no one is claiming a need for a metric of happiness. Metrics for social health are hardly obscure or exotic. The science is well established, and it includes objective measures like educational attainment, crime rate, and relative social mobility.

Now, bizarrely, these are sometimes quoted in political reporting, but they are never quoted in economic reporting. Effectively mainstream economics does not believe that crime, family breakdown, or stress-related mental illness as economic issues - except to the extent that they influence GDP.

So 'total relativism' remains - on the side of economists, and not so much on the side of people who would like to see objective reporting of social health replacing silly and meaningless numbers like GDP as primary social aims.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 13th, 2009 at 05:10:42 PM EST
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