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Legal positivism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Legal positivism is a school of thought in philosophy of law and jurisprudence. The principal claims of legal positivism are that:

  • There is no inherent or necessary connection between the validity conditions of law and ethics or morality.
  • Laws are rules made, whether deliberately or unintentionally, by human beings.
  • Laws must follow the rules of determinism.
Emphasis on the first bullet point... But what you say is in

Rättspositivism - Wikipedia

Enligt rättspositivismen kan inte en lag vara orätt, eftersom rätt bara är en idé eller känsla som skapats genom till exempel uppfostran, eller ett instrument för makthavare att utöva makt.
Why would a law then be changed? Because it is wrong or because it has become inconvenient to those with the vested legal power to change it?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 04:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The following sentence I think clears the confusion:

Det finns olika skolor inom rättspositivismen, varav en del menar att moral existerar och andra inte gör det.

Starvid appears to adher to the school within legal positivism that claims that moral does not exist. Therefore - if I understand it correctly - there is no moral that the law could contradict.

After reading some wikipedia I start to suspect that legal positivism is a school that highly values its internal model of the legal system. It should then not be surprising if changes in the laws are simply external factors that are uninteresting...

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:42:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid is also a realist which makes it also possible that he would accept "laws are changed for expeciency reasons when the old law becomes inconvenient to the sovereign". Which is not necessarily false, but also not necessarily true in all cases. I prefer the version where laws are changed when they get out of line with the evolving mores. And then there's a distinction between morality (as customs) and ethics (right behaviour).

In other words: there's what's legal and illegal; what's done or not done (morals); and right and wrong (ethics).

One doesn't have to believe in natural law (which is a sort of absolute standard) in order to believe that ethical behaviour exists and can be illegal.

But one can also decide that law dictates morality and there's no difference between morality and ethics.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
for expeciency reasons
expediency, that is.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 09:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A swedish kind of death:
I start to suspect that legal positivism is a school that highly values its internal model of the legal system. It should then not be surprising if changes in the laws are simply external factors that are uninteresting...
See also

Nomic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nomic is a game created in 1982 by philosopher Peter Suber in which the rules of the game include mechanisms for the players to change those rules, usually beginning through a system of democratic voting.[1]

Nomic is a game in which changing the rules is a move. In that respect it differs from almost every other game. The primary activity of Nomic is proposing changes in the rules, debating the wisdom of changing them in that way, voting on the changes, deciding what can and cannot be done afterwards, and doing it. Even this core of the game, of course, can be changed. --Peter Suber, the creator of Nomic, The Paradox of Self-Amendment, Appendix 3, p. 362.

Nomic actually refers to a large number of games based on the initial ruleset laid out by Peter Suber in his book The Paradox of Self-Amendment. (The ruleset was actually first published in Douglas Hofstadter's column Metamagical Themas in Scientific American in June 1982. The column discussed Suber's then-upcoming book, which was published some years later.) The game is in some ways modeled on modern government systems, and demonstrates that any such system where rule-changes are possible, a situation may arise in which the resulting laws are contradictory or insufficient to determine what is in fact legal. Because the game models (and exposes conceptual questions about) a legal system and the problems of legal interpretation, it is named after νόμος (nomos), Greek for "law". (See also nomos.)

You could argue that this is a legal-positivist game focusing mostly on the legal rules on how to change the rules. Legal positivism wouldn't posit that there is a right or wrong way of amending the law, but that the changes should be made according to the law itself.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid appears to adher to the school within legal positivism that claims that moral does not exist.
Actually, I'm not a legal positivist. Not really natural law either, but much closer to natural law than the Swedish Wikipedia variety of legal positivism you quoted, which I find rather disgusting.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 08:19:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then I misread what you said earlier.

Thanks for clearing that out.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 12:19:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah yes, it seems that's where the confusion comes from.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 08:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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