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Indeed, a walkable cluster 1/2 mile in radius (0.8km), around an electric rail station, at urban density (eg, townhouses on top of central commercial/office/retail, surrounded by stacked townhouses), surrounded by truck gardening is a mix of urban and rural that may well offer more of the fantasy of the suburbs than the suburbs themselves have done for decades.

Of course, the flip side of infill clusters at 4x to 8x suburban sprawl density is is reversion of 3/4 to 7/8 of land from housing to truck gardening and other resource extraction (including local energy resources).

And its not necessarily the case that any of this has to actually be planned. Assume a series of waves of fuel price shocks, and fierce political fights for establishment of electric rail transport. The locations around the stations on the corridors that get finished, or near enough, will be in very high demand, and first floor / basement "garden townhouses with second/third floor "patio" townhouses stacked on top are a fairly obvious way of selling the vicinity to the transport stop to more households.

Outside the walkable zone is a "mini-suburb" of detached homes with living victory gardens ... and eventually you get to the suburban terrain that lost the fight and ended up too far from the corridor when the tipping to infill clusters hit and the market price for residence "to far away" drops below its replacement cost.

When suburban housing unsupported by transit has a market value less than its replacement cost, it becomes slum ... as when housing anywhere drops below its replacement cost ... to be converted into multiple unit housing until it falls apart and becomes a vacant. However, built as they have been in the past few decades in the US, they won't spend nearly as long in the "slumlord rent extraction" phase, since they simply aren't as sturdy as the old brownstone townhouses.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 10:01:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course the key policy tool to encourage this is a "location benefit levy" or tax on land rental values, which is used to fund the construction of the electric rail utility which gives rise to the benefit....

....so the nearer the station, the more you pay.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 05:05:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... in promoting this is allowing it. Where it is illegal, it is less likely to happen than where it is legal.

Actually, another important policy tool for making it legal in more places would be to make the Federal capital gains tax property sale roll-over provisions apply on a value per-acre basis. This would shift the current tax bias in favour of greenfield development into a bias in favour of infill development.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 11:41:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you talking about suburban zoning regulations?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 11:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite ... the model regulations that many rely on for suburban developments include set asides, height restrictions, and single-use, single residential household provisions that makes it strictly illegal to provide infill development to the density that  Jane Jacobs argues is an urban density.

Since zoning power are part of the residual powers that vest at the state level, a state could provide for a blanket easement within a certain radius of a dedicated transport corridor stop that receives state funding for multi-use development with a height envelope no lower than three stories.

There are also owner compacts in some suburbs that provide restrictions on owners over and above the legal restrictions.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 01:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An easement could be sold as freedom from bureacratic rules...

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 02:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... are quite mute on the "infringement on liberty" represented by zoning regulations forbidding mixed use, multiple residency ... except, of course, running a propaganda mill is not free, so they focus on the freedoms that those with $m's to hand out in endowments are most concerned about.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 08:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Via an old post by Kevin Drum:


nd finally, a series of laws that helps explain the lack of mass transit in edge cities and why this will never change. Note that "FAR" stands for "Floor-to-Area Ratio," the ratio of the total floorspace of a building to the area of the land the building is on. It's basically a measure of population density.

  • The level of density at which automobile congestion starts becoming noticeable in edge city: 0.25 FAR.

  • The level of density at which it is necessary to construct parking garages instead of parking lots because you have run out of land: 0.4 FAR.

  • The level of density at which traffic jams become a major political issue in edge city: 1.0 FAR.

  • The level of density beyond which few edge cities ever get: 1.5 FAR.

  • The level of density at which light rail transit starts making economic sense: 2.0 FAR.

  • The level of density of a typical old downtown: 5.0 FAR.

The density-gap corollary to the laws of density: Edge cities always develop to the point where they become dense enough to make people crazy with the traffic, but rarely, if ever, do they get dense enough to support the rail alternative to automobile traffic.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:51:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For suitable values of "economic sense."

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The density at which light rail starts making economic sense is a function of technology and costs, clearly.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The (sensible) point Matt Y and Atrios always make about this is that you can actually change development around public transportation. Large potential for densification exists in many suburubs and it indeed mainly requires that you eliminate a number of restrictions to do with planning around cars.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:07:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"economic sense under prevailing political/regulatory conditions"

With the exceptions of places that manage to elect more far-sighted politicians, the definition of "economic sense" is the one we don't like but have to live with.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:03:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is where energy costs come into the picture ... and people are more responsive to the experience of oil price shocks than they would be to a slow, steady rise in the price of oil at the same average price, because of the experience of budgets being upset ... where people start clamouring for a transport line for reasons other than local traffic congestion.

This also comes with a long-term decline in the market value of auto-only suburban housing. When that declines to the point that auto-only suburban housing is valued below replacement cost, and transport-supplemented suburban housing is valued above replacement cost, that is a setting that is similar to the suburban transformation itself, when the market value of the urban density brownstone townhouses dropped below replacement cost and the processes of slum development and white flight to the suburbs began.

When developer profits hinge upon provision of a transport line, and when mixed used multiple lot occupancy is the most cost-effective way to leverage that access to a transport line, then zoning regulations in large numbers of suburban areas in the US will change.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 11:20:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is a tricky concept. Most people have Manhattan in mind, but Paris actually packs more people, business and activity on its territory, per square kilometer, than Manhattan, despite having very few buildings above 6 floors.

There's still a lot of truck grdening in the first ring of suburbs (which is almost as dense as central Paris), but I'm not sure this is really required. The logistics (food and other good supply) of a dense big city with lots of local smallish supermarkets and retailers are actually the most efficient you can have - remember that the hardest bit is always the wholesale-to-retail bit; with local supermarkets that can be supplied by medium sized trucks and that people can walk to, you solve the biggest issue.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 12:20:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... against the idea that everyone must move into densely populated cities as an argument that nobody must move into densely populated cities.

The less energy intensive system for providing the produce that is sold in city groceries that preceded the current oil-fed agricultural system involved a range of cities, towns, and hamlets ... and one thing that you found in the hamlets that had efficient transport access to cities and towns was a ring of truck gardening.

Europe also lives beyond its biocapacity ... indeed, in the rough estimates of the Global Footprint Network, the US, Germany and Japan each live beyond our biocapacity by similar acreages. France roughly breaks even on its biocapacity, but unless nations like the US and France with above-average biocapacity per capita are able to live within our means, that is not a technological regime that is a candidate for global sustainability.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 01:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
only that big cities are sustainable even if they produce no food locally because it is not that resource intensive to supply them effectively, and they have lots of other advantages coming from their density.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:53:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... of the resource intensity to supply them is that its very resource intensive ... but the resources are further up the supply chain.

However, the point of my previous comment is that my comment before that was not saying that big cities would necessarily be unsustainable.

However, that food does have to come from somewhere, and we can not just wave a magic wand and exempt agriculture from the need to be sustainable, so that we can just feed the cities with massive factory farms employing some minute share of the population.

The most energy efficient source of fresh produce for the cities on a whole life cycle analysis will be truck gardens with very little trucking involved, shipped in from surrounding ex-suburbs along the same transport corridors that provide the energy efficient passenger transport.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 11:09:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Manhattan (27,490 / km2) has a higher population density than Paris (25,460 / km2).

The point that you don't need high-rises for density still stands, of course.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:02:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the exact number. I'm still trying to dig up GDP numbers to compare as well...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:11:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New York Gross Metropolitan Product: $1.2tn.

Paris Region GDP: $731bn.

I'm a bit surprised by how low London in.  Only about $669bn.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:58:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but that's not the numbers I'm looking for - just Paris (the inside-the-ring city) vs Manhattan.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:00:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, I posted another comment below my original.  I don't think we calculate output for Manhattan alone, since it's only one borough of the city.  You could probably find Paris somewhere, but I couldn't get ahold of it.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:05:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...adding: Those are obviously not comparisons between Paris and Manhattan but rather the two metro areas.  I don't see actual statistics for either the Paris city limits or Manhattan.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, administratively, Manhattan = New York County and Paris = the 75 département (and the city), so it should be easy to find data for both deep down the bowels of our respective statistical administrations...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 04:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just read 'Car Free Cities' by J.H. Crawford.  He proposes pretty much this exact model.  If you haven't read this, I commend it to you.
by njh on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 03:02:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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