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why this is so for most, or at minimum many, of the social-democratic parties in the EU. From TOH, the British, German, Dutch, Italian (?), Spanish (?) all suffer from a similar ailing - selling out to the Third Way. How come that this zeitgeist is present in so many countries?

Is it simply the failure of social-democratic echelons that forget whom they are meant to represent? Labourers have become lower (middle) class, but the Labour party has already moved on to upper class...?

by Nomad on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 05:43:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nomad:
all suffer from a similar ailing - selling out to the Third Way. How come that this zeitgeist is present in so many countries?
Isn't that the definition of Zeitgeist?

Nomad:

Is it simply the failure of social-democratic echelons that forget whom they are meant to represent? Labourers have become lower (middle) class, but the Labour party has already moved on to upper class...?
Once the labourers become middle class they lose their class consciousness and become individualistic. Pandering to "middle class concerns" tends to result in regressive policies, for some reason.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 05:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, IdiotSavant complained recently:
I didn't think the middle classes (which most UKanians don't identify themselves as anyway) were who a labour party was supposed to fight for
I think you, Nomad, doth protest too much that Social Democrats should stand for the middle class and they are wrong to have moved on to upper class.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 06:05:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand what you mean to say. Re-phrase?
by Nomad on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 06:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You identify as middle class, and progressive. So you think it's natural for the Social Democratic parties to defend the Middle Class. But it's not. The Social Democrats are supposed to defend the working class though there's in principle nothing wrong with them having middle-class sympathisers or cadres. The party of the Middle Class are the Liberals.

Now, lately the Social Liberals and the Social Democrats are nearly indistinguishable in policy though they remain distinguishable in which social network (or "base") they represent.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 06:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With medium income, a progressive mindset and belonging to the <1% of Dutch population with a MSc degree, I find myself identifying most frequently as an elitist, arrogance included.

Labourers have become lower (middle) class, but the Labour party has already moved on to upper class...?

Note the parentheses. I wanted the focus on the lower class and with bits of lower middle class. I meant the same thing what you're writing.

When policies of Social Democrats shift closer to that of the Liberals, the Overton Window is at work. It only means Social Democrats represent their base in name only.

by Nomad on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 07:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...and I note I read you that way.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 07:47:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Swedish social democracy became hugely succesful by transcending the class struggle (in the 50's) and incorporating the middle class, becoming its party as well. The soc dem weakening can almost exclusively be explained through its alienation of the middle class, which started around 1968 and intensified during the 70's.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Oct 7th, 2009 at 12:40:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way. What's the origin of the notion that was long prevalent in the British media (before he became PM that is) that Brown is "Old Labour"? Was it vily preemptive spin from Bliar?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 07:50:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He was "Old" in that he wasn't media-savvy. He glowered and retreated to his bunker to sulk. NuLab wasn't really an ideological position, the neoliberalism of watered-down Thatcherism was simply the easiest cloth to wear. And while the City boomed, it didn't matter it was all bs. There were wars to fight and directorships to secure.

Brown wasn't interested in any of that. He didn't smile for the camera. He wasn't policy-lite, bobbling along on a froth of publicity. He wouldn't co-operate.

So his very stodginess made him a problem to be derided. And no insult was worse than "Old Labour". Even Prescott, who really was old labour, had to be protected from that slur.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 09:39:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that the definition of Zeitgeist?

LOL!
Once the labourers become middle class they lose their class consciousness and become individualistic. Pandering to "middle class concerns" tends to result in regressive policies, for some reason.

"Pandering to middle class concerns" = boilerplate

The 'middle class' is a largely rhetorical category in Anglo-American politics.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 06:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The confusion of middle class (in terms of economic power) and middle income facilitates this.

Used to be that middle class meant you had some economic power, some economic independence - professionals, successful small business and so on - and working class meant you depended on a boss to pay you.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 06:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With the migration of most skilled labour to middle incomes, or to the leisure class, however you'd call it, it has also adopted a set of middle class attitudes. Or that's the perception I get.

Still, it is at least on the medium term suicidal for social democratic parties to practice actual middle class politics that negatively affect labour, like, say, labour market flexibilisation and union-busting policies. Or cutting the top income bracket tax rate below 50%.

That should have been obvious, but the third way social democrats seem to have practiced a wilful blindness to longer term political economy.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 07:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have one word for you: television.

Ok, that is a bit reductionistic. But according to swedish politicla historians, the last break in swedish political culture came with the rise of television as media. Until then every party tried to build a huge organisation (socialdemocrats were best at it, but all tried) with as many members as possible. After that a small, media-trained, good-looking, fast-moving, party elite becomes better then thousands of activists that might not work on television. Television also becomes the fast medium, activists get to hear from the news that the party line has changed, instead of them participating in forming the party line. Power was centralised, members dropped off, the lack of activists made it even more important to get the television part right, and so on.

The turning point in politics comes a bit later then the rise of television but this is slow processes so that should not surprise. By the time of the 90'ies crisis the parties were centralised and the socialdemocrats bought into the third way - with some hollering and even more lost members.

Total membership in all the parties represented in the parliament:

  1. 1 346 000
  2. 1 343 000
  3. 1 582 000
  4. 625 306
  5. 383 521
  6. 259 236

Source: Swedish Wikipedia

To put a glimmer of hope, I would say that internet is creating a similar process. It makes huge campaigns easier, makes direct communication faster then through television, increases the weight of the written word. All pointing towards the rising importance of members, which will put demands on rising participation in deciding the parties politics. But it will take time, and newer parties might have it easier to build online then for example the socialdemocrats.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 06:42:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Buy Media™

A modern party would probably run as a media party above all else.

You wouldn't only get a say in making your favourite media content, you'd get a chance to set policy too - a sort of Strictly Prime Minister, or Big Westminster.

You could even make a living from it - shares in the new party could be unitised and traded, with each share giving the owner a vote, and a claim on future income.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 09:22:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ironically the swedish socialdemocrats and the Centre party both had small empires in local (and in the socialdemocrats case one national) newspapers that they have sold in the period since 1990.

However, I am not so sure buying media will do it for everyone. Media will not turn a profit if you can not sell the ads, and your policies will affect your advertising income. It will work if you push for the agenda of those that has the money to buy ads.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 09:44:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I wasn't thinking of money from ads.

How 20th century.

No - the idea was to use the machinery of government for personal profit, like Berlusconi, Murdoch, Blair and the rest, but with the chance for the public to get involved in the racketeering and profiteering, as seen on TV, with enthusiastic audience participation, covered by the same media channels that everyone has a share in.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 10:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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