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firstly, as you scale up wind to a bigger proportion of the grid, the quality of your sites degrades quickly

So what? That's an argument against trying for 100 % wind, which is a crude straw man that nobody is defending.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 08:59:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the issue is that I am advocating that the world should move to a "french" energy mix of "Nukes + hydro" only as a strategy to combat global warming, and people invariably respond with "we should build wind instead". in that context, the relevant cost of wind is the cost of wind in a wholly wind+hydro grid. Yes?
Otherwise the response is entirely besides the point.
by Thomas on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 09:48:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The relevant comparison is between grids with different mixes of wind, solar, nuke and hydro.

You propose a 0/0/80/20 mix.

I tell you that this is unlikely to be economical, and is susceptible to all the normal risks of monocropping vis-a-vis systemic failures.

A 80/0/0/20 mix is equally unlikely to be economical, but that is irrelevant, because no sane person proposes this mix. Personally, I could see a 45/25/10/20 mix, if solar matures rapidly, or a 45/10/25/20 mix if it does not. Give or take ten to twenty percentage points.

Alternatively, one can consider the marginal cost of adding capacity. Since nuclear has already harvested all the economies of scale that are likely to apply, you are facing constant or increasing marginal cost as you add nuclear to the energy mix. Wind has harvested much but not all of its economies of scale, so for a while you're going to see declining marginal cost before they start going up again.

Now, in any scenario where you have two or more factors of production that all have constant or rising marginal cost, it makes sense to diversify. This is really, really simple arithmetic...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:00:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"We should build wind instead" is a straw man. We should build wind as well.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:02:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there somebody here who is defending a 100% wind+hydro solution? Most people here seem to be in favour of a heterogeneous solution appropriate to the locality - so smart grid, whatever renewables are available and reasonably cost efficient (wind, hydro, wave, biofuels, whatever).

There is an issue around nuclear power: some people see it in terms of cost benefit analysis and some simply believe that the risks are such as to exclude it - they effectively belief the costs are unbounded. You can't solve that by talking about cost.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:01:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Given that France relies on balancing via its exports to Italy, Spain and the Netherlands, the French model is not transferable to the entirety of the world or even just Europe, the same way US/UK capitalism isn't.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am aware of that- France has not invested nearly enough money in pumped storage, vis-a-vis nukes. The mix, if you will, is somewhat off. This however, isnt really an insurmountable problem, but rather a question of proper planning.
by Thomas on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:40:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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