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Thomas, thanks for letting me know something about you.  Me, pioneer in windpower from the 70's on (that's 1970's), developed first utility-scale wind park in the world, and have been influential in energy policy at both Federal and State policy levels.  One of my teachers is a father of windpower in DK, and former head of RISO Labs.  Once found an entire set of blueprints and binders for an Oregon nuke plant in someone's garbage. and read them.

Are you open to changing your views when confronted with evidence, i am.

  1.  Annual costs are the marker for evaluating electricity prices, not short-term spot prices high or low or negative.  Your marginal cost of adding DK wind is not calculated upon spot prices, nor does it include what most other people believe are benefits.  But i'll let the Danes here contest this point.

  2.  Point conceded.  Wind IS a catastrophe for the environment, you are correct, especially as you have evaluated the "actual consequences" of the two technologies so well, and so far into the future.

  3.  Perhaps you don't trust energy efficiency, but then you wouldn't trust a half century of science, engineering and financial analysis which says otherwise either.

  4.  Correct again, gas has to go.  But if it's the cleanest of all the fossils, when should it go?  Tonight?  After we C4 all the coal plants tomorrow morning?  Perhaps you should care, then you might be helpful in enabling a reasonable transition.

  5.  Now you wrapped the knot around your neck.  Who's advocating wind in Tokyo, or Christiania for that matter, and how does that relate to your previous statement regarding wind/capita and watts/m2?  Which part controversial?  The parts that make no sense.

  6.  Well, they are certainly good activists, if they raised nuclear costs all by their lonesomes.  You should hire those guys to your side, no?  Or perhaps the utility lawyers were drunk, and didn't give it their best shot?

  7.  Have i read ExternE?  I was one of the leading players working years to get externalities mentioned, much less accurately accounted, including testimony before the California Public Utilities Commission and Congress.  You could say that ExternE came out of the work I and many others performed to set the stage.  So yes, i've read that and others, as well as those who investigate its shortcomings.

Your future cancer discussion is pretty absurd, so i'll let it stand on it's own.

  1.  No one said ground water was used for cooling.  Cooling discussion was about your myopia on what a sea or air ecosystem is, and ground water contamination is a very real and separate issue.

  2.  again, thanks for answering, now we know a bit more about you.  But i'm betting you have some better goal in life, and that tech support is not it, it's just a job for now.  What do you want to be doing in ten years?


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 11:02:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Am I the only one that finds
But i'm betting you have some better goal in life, and that tech support is not it, it's just a job for now.  What do you want to be doing in ten years?
slightly patronizing?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 11:27:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no i don't find it patronizing, others may.  once i found out he's a student i ask such questions, same as i'd ask a waitress, partly because i'm actually interested in where Thomas is heading.

Poor phrasing, yeah, grant you that.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 12:40:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i'm actually interested in where Thomas is heading

Yeah, right, just in your previous comment you were questioning his motives.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 12:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, you interpreted it as that. i asked because it was a possibility, period.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 01:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this subthread has just passed the official EU heat/light threshold for electrical equipment...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 01:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I'm generally with you on the substance of the argument, I think you are using a rather too combative tone here.

We have a lot of arguments to defend the qualities of wind power and critique some of the claims made by Thomas, so let's focus on these rather than on ad hominems. While partial to nuclear, Thomas' arguments are rational and follow traditional lines that we are all-too-familar with, so let's just respond as we know we can rather than question his motives or good faith.

Don't forget that even within the wind industry, many of the points we regularly make here on ET are not that well known (such as the size of merit-order effect on prices of wind).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 11:49:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You may, and well-taken.  Except for the part of rational argument.  if you go through the thread, there's a host of statements that are not rational, spinned opinion at best, which of course he's entitled to.  But then he's also entitled to a sharp answer.

i think i'll just leave it alone.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 12:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude, which part of this is rational argument exactly? I see argument by authority, argument by derision, argument by intimidation, argument by CV...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 01:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migs, i'm not going to post what i wrote in answer to this.  Just know that it's obvious from my very first comment on in what direction i was going here, and that's writerly, not rationally on a very serious issue to me.  I welcome your interpretation, just don't call me Dude when it's a serious comment again.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 02:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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