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All costs of nuclear capacity are fixed, save fuel, and fuel costs essentially nothing.

Well, no:

Particularly not when you consider waste post-processing and final storage (which normally faces substantial cost overruns). And it is not altogether self-evident that current storage solutions can be scaled up arbitrarily without hitting a point of escalating costs, as they are every bit as dependent on limited geological resources as oil extraction is.

Oh, and uranium prices do not necessarily reflect the full social and ecological cost of extraction, when said extraction is done in third-world countries where both life and pollution are cheap.

And while we're at it, nukes also require idling backup plants, because you cannot expect to always be able to schedule maintenance in periods where the plants are not needed (and that's just the scheduled maintenance - any emergency shutdowns, which kinda by definition cannot be scheduled, come on top of this). Since nuclear comes in somewhat bigger chunks of generating capacity, it is not really self-evident that nuclear needs less backup capacity than wind.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 04:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Particularly not when you consider waste post-processing and final storage (which normally faces substantial cost overruns).
The cost is very small, even with the overengineered solutions developed, and can be taken from cashflow. Cost is about 0.1 cents per kWh over the lifetime of the plant.

And it is not altogether self-evident that current storage solutions can be scaled up arbitrarily without hitting a point of escalating costs, as they are every bit as dependent on limited geological resources as oil extraction is.
Not in the slightest. Good enough bedrock is by no means rare. They are limited in the same way the global supply of gravel is finite.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 04:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
€ 1/MWh is still a 3 % increase in total cost, according to the above figure. And something on the order of a 30 % increase in the variable cost, which goes from being on the order of 10 % to being on the order of 13 %.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 05:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since nuclear comes in somewhat bigger chunks of generating capacity, it is not really self-evident that nuclear needs less backup capacity than wind.

Furthermore, because it comes in such large chunks, with such long lead times for installation nuclear is always behind or ahead of the demand curve and spends of lot of time stranded.  Whereas, wind and solar can be added almost continuously with demand making them even more attractive.

by njh on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 05:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, not really. Nuclear has such low variable costs that it will displace other sources of generation (except wind and hydro) even if it is added to a grid with surplus capacity. Furthermore, lead times need not at all be long. In a national effort with a solid competence base the plants will be built in about 5 years. The Japanese even manage to do it in 4 years at times.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 05:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... that is at best a four year lead time to produce the number of plants a country is presently equipped to produce. Otherwise the lead time includes the lead time of building the production capacity.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 02:53:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One need only look at the French (and Swedish) examples to see that needn't be a problem.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 03:19:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The issue is not whether its "a problem", the issue is whether a four year build out of a planned expansion in share of nuclear capacity is a realistic number. Citing the French case, if the decision was around 1974, 1984 looks far more like the target share than 1978.

Not installing wind turbines which will begin to be delivering power later in year one of the build-out on the promise that in four years the first power will begin to be delivered and in ten years you'll be getting close to your target is just a substantially different case to evaluate than not building wind turbines on the promise that in four year you'll be getting about the amount of power you want from nuclear.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 03:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Four years is the minimum time to build one reactor. The French peak reactor construction year was 1982 (6 reactors) IIRC. Going from 0 % to 75 % nuclear took about 15 years IIRC. Hardly a long time.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 05:50:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Compare the first statement to the final statement:
Furthermore, lead times need not at all be long. In a national effort with a solid competence base the plants will be built in about 5 years.

Four years is the minimum time to build one reactor.

We've gone from a statement that in the most direct reading suggests that all reactors desired may be built by a country "with a solid competence base" in about five years, so long as its part of a national effort, to one that makes it clear that four is an absolute bare minimum time to build one reactor.

Whether fifteen years is a long or short time, it is appreciably longer than five years.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 07:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We've gone from a statement that in the most direct reading suggests that all reactors desired may be built by a country "with a solid competence base" in about five years
I never claimed that.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Jan 18th, 2010 at 03:42:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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