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I've never driven a focus, but it has a very good reputation.  Only problem is that, by the best European and Japanese standards, Ford cars aren't particularly economical.  Even a good turbodiesel would be a huge improvement.  Most new European cars are diesels these days and there is no comparison in terms of performance/economy.  A 2 litre diesel BMW 5 series is even more economical than a Prius, and there is no comparison in terms of room, comfort and performance (and price, unfortunately).

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 05:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've never seen what a 5 series costs in Europe, but in the states there'd be no real comparison on room (although the Focus is a compact, the Beamer is a pretty large car), comfort and performance.  However, the BMW wouldn't be as well produced, would cost more in gasoline, and would cost a fortune to repair when something inevitably went wrong.  (BMW is known to stand for "Break My Wallet" among Americans.)  I've never been terribly impressed with German cars for that reason.

But, assuming away the affordability and frustration issues, the 5 series is a nicer car on day-to-day driving.

Cadillacs and Lincolns would be the more apt comparisons with BMWs and Mercedes.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 06:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...adding: Not that I've ever actually owned a German car, obviously.  That's just my experience listening to friends and family who have.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 07:01:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just using the comparison to illustrate how much more economical good turbodiesels are when compared to petrol - and the fact that petrol electric hybrids are not anywhere near as efficient as a good turbodiesel.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 07:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's very true.  Unfortunately, from what I can gather, we seem to have a really dumb regulatory regime here that prevents good turbodiesels.  The only car I'm aware of that uses one in a VW.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 08:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
regulatory regime?  what's that all about?  I thought diesels were unpopular in the US because they were associated with old loud dirty slow engines that were the norm 25 years ago.

The VW 2.0 Litre turbo diesel which you can get in the Golf or Passat is supposed to be v. good too.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 08:39:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The VW sounds okay.  Both the Golf and Jetta have TDI models.  Pretty expensive, though.  Twenty three grand is well into Mini Cooper niche/boutique territory for what isn't really a niche/boutique brand.  And you'd need to save a lot of gas to make up for the five grand difference in price between the TDI and the gasoline models.

Regulatory: As I understand it (as always, I may be wrong), we don't have diesels due to the way diesel emissions are regulated in the US.

Can't see it being because of old associations with the engines.  At least not beyond pushing the cars for a couple years until people see that they're not all those things anymore.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 08:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ASAIK diesels are also cleaner than petrol engines - certainly in terms of CO2 emissions.  There is no technical justification for the 5K price differential.  Diesels are only marginally more expensive to produce than petrol engines when produced in large volumes.  It must be the low volumes sold in the US that creates the differential - that plus VW making money where they can.  German manufacturers are not noted for price discounting to gain market share.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 08:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I drove a VW diesel for 5 years, Compared to a Ford Petrol of roughly the same capacity, it worked out on Fuel that we were saving roughly £40 per week, the only thing that worked out worse was that like all deisels it was expensive in front tyres with the heavier engine.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was probably the old 1.9L diesel which had good low end torque but v. average diesel economy.  The much newer 2.0 Litre is supposed to be a big improvement in refinement, economy, and performance - but I have never driven it.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 07:38:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jesus, how many miles were you driving per week?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 07:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
About 270 miles a week

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 09:34:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The story goes that US particulate emission standards regulate European diesels out of the market.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 03:57:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds conceivable. Do they apply the same emission standards to large trucks?  How come VW has Diesels on the market then?  Perhaps it also depends on how "clean" the base diesel is at the retail level.  Are there different refining standards?

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 07:36:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More room in the big truck for the bolt on scrubber or whatever it is - but if its a sideswipe protectionist measure that better explains how it got through in the first place.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 08:02:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... tightening of refining standard for diesel fuel in the last few years, which is a reason why diesel prices started to really pick up steam before gasoline in the 06/07 period - don't know if that was up to Euro standards or up from Euro standard.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 08:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't have VW in the US?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 03:51:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
do you think it might have something to do with the quality of the macadam?

granted, the distances are another dimension entirely, but i wonder if that's why american suspensions, even in luxury cars, seem suspended in sponge, compared to the equivalent euro guzzler.

i also remember the astonishing number of dead (especially truck) tire shells littering the sides of highways in the USA, something which is rare over here.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 10:27:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You see tire shreds on roads here pretty often too. Possibly it's a difference in clean-up policy. It would take an awfully long time before the authorities here would get around to collecting them if they weren't causing a hazard.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 10:38:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of those are retreads, which tend to blow with higher frequency - don't know if youse Yuros permit retreads.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 08:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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