Display:
Unfortunately, when put to it, the alternative is Fine Gael - even worse then Fianna Fail ideologically - or a sudden massive move to Labour.  Not gonna happen. I can still see Fianna Fail returning to power in coalition with some collection of smaller parties next time out, especially if there's any improvement in the economy and they manage to throw the middle earners (not middle class) a flotation device of some kind.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 08:06:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fine Gael may be socially more conservative, but their economic conservatism is of the old fashioned - paying your way kind - rather than the Fianna Fail speculator borrow and binge neo-liberal mindset.  Thus they wouldn't have been as pro-cyclical in their taxation policies, didn't abolish rates, and would have been more prudent in terms of managing the public finances.

The Irish political system has been remarkably resilient and stable, and I don't expect a revolution or a left/right split on the European model any time soon.  But their has been a consistent long-term decline in the Fianna Fail base in any case - from their 50%+ vote in 1979 to c. 40% in recent elections and less than 30% if current opinion polls are actually realised at the polls.

However the PDs, Sinn Fein and the Greens are also imploding somewhat - so there is a huge vacuum for someone to fill - hopefully not by some demagogue playing on people's fears.  In the short term I would see this being filled largely by Fine Gael - and then by Labour as Fine Gael inevitably fail to address the core issues. But its all to play for.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 08:27:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fine Gael aren't going to do a damn thing about inequality though, which is a core economic problem.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 08:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They will be trying to look out for the "mortgaged to the hilt", negative equity, aspiring middle class though - that's a core demographic for them - and these people are in real trouble for the foreseeable future.

The problem with Fine Gael is that they are almost "owned" by big business and the professional classes - and these are the quasi-monopoly operators who are really increasing our economic and social cost base at the moment.

But whilst I see Labour also being a major beneficiary in the short term, and perhaps the major beneficiary going forward, I don't see a huge ideological transformation of the country happening just yet.

People are looking for scapegoats - the banks obviously, and the Government - perhaps even the Eurozone a la McWilliams.  But blame the Irish elite?  Never!

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 08:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The current demonology blames the developers and the poor banks they conned of their money.

I'm not sure I buy your contention that it's the professional classes what done it - and in most their income seems to have taken a pretty serious hit from the recession as far as I can tell. Probably much more serious than most middle earners (except those who lost jobs).

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 08:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
their income seems to have taken a pretty serious hit from the recession as far as I can tell

Isn't that prima facie evidence that it's them who dun it?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 09:02:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, just that their income is generally faster to react to a downturn than an employees. If you're a solicitor who makes most of your money on house sales, for instance, your income is way down immediately the property market tanks.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 09:07:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did their income also massively go up during the bubble?

Who benefitted from the bubble while it was going on? If your income is strongly correlated with asset prices you will benefit when there is a bubble and hurt in the crash. You will also have a short-term incentive to encourage a bubble. You are likely to favour policies which will lead to bubbles. The professional class is also better politically connected than other classes (and lots of the politicians are professionals) and so they have a disproportionate amoutn of political influence.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 09:11:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So did everyone anyway involved in property. Builders (as in the guys with the trowels), furniture shops, electricians, solicitors, architects and so on.  All suffering disaster now. A large proportion of our furniture shop clients have gone under.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 09:45:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think the professional classes caused the crash - they were just making hay while the sun shone like every one else who could.  However in terms of our ongoing competitiveness they are also the most insulated from competitive pressures.  

Have bank managers -other than top executives - taken a hit, have Barristers reduced their fees?  Have Medical consultants or even your local GP?  Half a million Euro p.a. is not unusual for a consultant - half of that from the Government for a part time job.  Even top civil servants have managed to largely reverse the planned budget cut whilst junior civil servants take the full hit. These guys were earning way more that their EU counterparts in most instances, and indirectly they effect the cost of living and doing business here for everyone else.  

Are Fine Gael going to socialise private medicine - never.  Will labour? - not at the moment.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 09:05:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Barristers probably have reduced their fees, I haven't tried using one recently. I do know they're having much more trouble getting paid. Anyway, their fees have always been negotiable. And what percentage of GNP is barristers fees anyway?

The whole medical system is a mess, and it's not cleat to me what good "competition" is going to do.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 09:11:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My experience of solicitors at the mo. is that they are making work for themselves by abusing the legal system by maximising legal obscurantism.  One firm is charging several million for work done on a file which led to damages of less than that.

If you want to reduce the total cost of the medical system, you will have to socialise it, but as it stands our private system is damaging the competitiveness of the rest of the economy by creating huge costs for all that have to be reflected in wages and the cost of doing business.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 10:52:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
My experience of solicitors at the mo. is that they are making work for themselves by abusing the legal system by maximising legal obscurantism.

That would be business as usual for corporate lawyers - and many other kinds of lawyers too.

When you're being paid a few hundred an hour for playing with your pencils and designing incomprehensible sentences, there's no particular incentive to be clear, concise and straightforward.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 11:43:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anecdotally, bank managers were never paid that much (compared to people in sexier busiinesses): two to three times average industrial wage, maybe a bit more.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 13th, 2010 at 09:37:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
AIB and BofI and the major banks offer superb overall packages in terms of job security, pension benefits, preferential loans, and salaries when compared to the rest of the economy.  Other than top executives losing bonuses, there has been little evidence of a reduction in that cost base, and no evidence at all for reduced charges or better access to credit for consumers and small businesses - both critical to preventing a further slide into depression.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're expecting banks to lend in a recession? The trick of banking here has always been not to lend to people who needed it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:49:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So why are there now "Public Interest" Directors on their boards representing the 50% taxpayer shareholding in the banks?

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 12:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Preventing a further slide into depression doesn't depend on commercial bank lending but on government running a counter-cyclical fiscal policy.

Of course this runs counter to the prevailing ideology, so here we are.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 11:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in good news, the rate of deflation slowed in December. Weeee!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 11:15:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ONLY -5% now!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 12:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is a Government running deficits equivalent to 12% of GDP not running a counter cyclical fiscal policy?

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 12:48:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If that's the result of cutting taxes, not so much...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 05:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The tax cuts were 5 years ago and more.  The deficit would have been 15% of GDP without expenditure cuts and some tax increases.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 05:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then the policy is 3% less counter-cyclical than it could have been. And a lot more than it should have been :P

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 05:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would regard it more as an unwinding of the unsustainably pro-cyclical policies of the prior years - chiefly under McCreevy's regime, but also, to a lesser extent, during Cowen's tenure at Finance.  I don't think going back to a debt/GDP ration of c.100% is a good idea.  As it is we will go close unless there is a turnaround in the next couple of years.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 05:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(And that is before you take into account the 57 Billion of off balance sheet Nama funding).  Quite how the simple device of a special purpose vehicle can get around EU national accounting rules is difficult to fathom...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 05:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's off-balance-sheet
Your imagination is the limit.
Wait, it gets better
Perhaps on the balance sheet of another company.
Usually on the balance sheet of a Special Purpose Entity (SPE).
Your company's shareholders perhaps know it, perhaps not.
LOL
do you mean "creative accounting"?
I prefer to call it "financial engineering".


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 06:02:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently Eurostat think it is a great idea.  And the OECD loved our very innovative "long term economic value" concept for over-paying banks for their assets.  Apparently it was sufficiently vague to defy analysis which was the point of the exercise.

Anyway, you can't fault the Irish for not trying it on...

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 06:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's just the same argument US banks used to get the US government to overpay for their assets. The idea is that if you just manage to ride out the storm until the sunny day when asset prices are back up to 'normal'...

So much pressure to reform accounting standards to reflect mark-to-market and it had to come to this...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 06:37:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well when the market is "wrong" you just create a futures market in "hope".  Obama did it in politics as well.  You extract a current market premium by leveraging people's aspirations (or desperation) for the future.  It's a bit like selling the power from solar panels that will be generated from "sunny days" yet to come.  Jerome does it all the time in a windier way...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 06:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
High unemployment (of people and plant) causes damage to the economy. If it goes on for a long time it causes permanent damage. Debt to GDP ratios be damned (assuming the debt is used to return the economy to a normal level of activity).

Once the economy starts recovering it will be time to reduce public spending and raise taxes by 3% and more, not while the economy is still in a nosedive.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 06:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Debt to GDP ratios be damned (assuming the debt is used to return the economy to a normal level of activity)

Normally I would agree but:

  1. Much of the downturn was caused by unsustainable asset and cost inflation.  Assets have imploded.  Costs are only v. slowly returning to "normal"=sustainable levels.

  2. There comes a point at which huge budget deficits become self-reinforcing and unsustainable because the cost of borrowing goes up even more than the rate of borrowing because foreign lenders simply won't lend without increasing risk premia.  Irish public and private foreign debt is c. 800% GDP, so we are huge over-leveraged as it is.

  3.  Most of the down turn has been in the construction and tourism sectors.  Construction was c. 15% of GDP (if memory serves) and we were building houses at a rate c. 50% the level fro all of the UK.  Not only are many of those houses empty, office and factory vacant space is at record levels.  It is pointless trying to reflate that bubble just yet.  

As for tourists - for some unaccountable reason spaniards don't want to enjoy our weather in the same numbers as we enjoy yours. Thus most hotels are closing for lack of demand.theirs.  I suggest the EU force Spaniards to come and holiday here.  At the moment we just get your delinquent teenagers on so-called language courses...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 14th, 2010 at 06:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't being totally serious last night but the answer to
I don't think going back to a debt/GDP ration of c.100% is a good idea.

...

Irish public and private foreign debt is c. 800% GDP, so we are huge over-leveraged as it is.

is that the Irish government didn't need to exhaust its fiscal capacity by guaranteeing all debt liabilities of all banks and throwing NAMA on top of that.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 04:14:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree guaranteeing subordinated debt was stupid but the Irish Government would argue that:

  1. No debt guarantees have been called in yet so at the moment this is not a fiscal drag

  2. Ireland's "responsible" attitude has boosted the confidence of international lenders in Irish Government debt generally and thus reduced borrowing costs

  3. The banks are paying c. 1 Billion p.a. as a fee for the guarantee

  4. All Nama funding will be off-balance sheet and not included in any "fiscal" national accounts - do not pass go and return to # 1 above...

Maybe I should get a job as a Government spokesman...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 07:31:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're going to argue that, then you can't use the 800% GDP total public and private debt as an argument against running a large deficit.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 08:15:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Irish Government are keeping very quiet on that...don't want to be compared to Iceland, now do we?

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 08:39:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difference with Iceland is that you're in the Euro.

The question is whether the ECB can and will be a lender of last resort to Irish banks.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 09:57:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are many other differences as well - scale, size of GDP, diversity of infrastructure and industries, current level of public indebtedness.  Let's not become uni-factorial about this.  Just as the Celtic Tiger wasn't solely caused by EU subsidies or low corporate taxes, neither will Ireland's recovery now be solely down to the Euro or the ECB.  My argument with McWilliams is that I see it as a positive factor, whereas he sees it as a negative one.  Neither of us would claim it is the only factor.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jan 15th, 2010 at 10:48:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series