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Danps, I notice that your post has not drawn comments on Booman.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 04:20:45 PM EST
I noticed the same thing.  And this is the most I've ever got here.  Funny.
by danps (dan at pruningshears (dot) us) on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 04:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many comments do you usually get at Booman's?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 04:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are speaking ill of the Idol.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 05:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, I tipped Dan, not necessarily because I agree with his analysis, but because he wrote a diary that made reasonable, good faith arguments and didn't resort to sweeping negative generalizations, as is becoming so widespread.  Like calling Obama The Idol.  What, exactly, is the point of that comment?  I'm honestly asking.  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 06:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By many, it seems to me, he has been treated as an Idol of whom no criticism will be accepted. I don't hate him, but I do hate what a hash he has made of his first year. I think he and the crew he kept for Washington acted and believed that perception management was everything. I believe that he did campaign on a more progressive platform, but, upon election, walked away from the message and the people who had helped elect him. I am not terribly surprised, but I had hoped he would rise to the occasion. He has not. Yet. And by now it may be too late to do any good. For those who saw his as The One, their idol has been shown to have feet of clay. And even if he turns things around, in which case I will support him, it will be because it was expedient, not because it was based on strongly held principles and beliefs.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 07:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thats truly off base. Barbara Lee has been harshly critical of Obama's economic policy and his policy in Afghanistan without engaging in the counter-productive wailing about being thrown under the bus, stabbed in the back, and lied to that is so common. My objection is to both the content of the critique, which seems to me to fail to grasp how the US Empire works, and the style which borrows so freely from reactionary formulations that it carries a message of weakness and defeat.

As Ray Williams said: to be truly radical is to make hope possible, not despair convincing.

by rootless2 on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 07:23:45 PM EST
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Thank you for that.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant
by redstar on Sun Jan 24th, 2010 at 06:31:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I heard it from Amory Lovins.
by rootless2 on Sun Jan 24th, 2010 at 11:56:59 AM EST
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to be truly radical is to make hope possible, not despair convincing.

Had Obama DONE anything to actually make hope possible I would not hold the views I do. Ignoring the biggest and most fundamental problem we face does not make it disappear. And I am not saying that there have been no critics. I have been citing some of those critics. I am not complaining just because views I share have been ignored, but because I see ignoring those problems as leading us to greater disaster, both political and economic.

If my use of the term Idol, especially with a capital "I", has offended some, I regret my in-artful language. The truth is that he has been seen by some more in the terms of a Rock Star Idol than as a religious idol, but I don't place a lot of value on either type of idol. I think the Obamas may have even joked about his "idol" status. That is turning into another of these ugly truths which you would have progressives ignore or refrain from mentioning and from which I would prefer Obama to learn.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Jan 24th, 2010 at 02:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, but you didn't answer my question -- what good does this kind of rhetoric do?  I feel your comments close down any possibility of communicating with someone who sees things differently from you.  

You say it seems to you that he's being treated as an idol and no criticism is accepted, but I could just as easily flip that and say 'your camp' treats him as a demon and no acknowledgment of good things is accepted and then we're both just talking past each other.  What good does it do to frame things this way?  

It seems to me that you're also framing an awful lot of your opinions and interpretations as fact -- "a hash he has made of his first year;  believed that perception management was everything;  walked away from the message" -- these are all your judgments, stated as fact.  You then exclude any changing of your opinion by saying even if he changes, it's too late to do any good and you've decided it will be based on expedience rather than principle or belief, so he apparently can never win you over.

So if I'm reading you correctly, you're the one who is operating on belief -- strongly held beliefs in which you've judged Obama and found him wanting -- but want to criticize those who 'believe' differently from you and mock them for idolatry?  Is there any room for discussion in this dynamic?  I'm thinking it just leads to hostility and can't see any good coming from it, which is why I'm asking the question -- maybe there's a benefit to it I'm not seeing.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 08:23:43 PM EST
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By calling him The Idol, you liken him to a wooden statue to which magical powers have been spuriously attributed by fools.  Thus, Obama is a fake, and his supporters are dupes.  Your comment further implies that the Idol has already been shown to be false, but the foolish supporters are so stupid that they cannot see it, and thus ignore the reality of the situation.  The fact that many of Obama's supporters are young people, new to the political process, also adds an element of generational contempt - those young people were too stupid to listen to their elders, and now look at what they've done.

If that is what you mean, own it.

In any case, having one's hopes raised and then cruelly dashed is an important part in developing seasoned activists and political operatives.  Sure, a lot of people get turned off by the process and give up, but I don't think there's anything that can be done - just hope they'll get over it, and re-join the fight later.  But others survive the experience, and are stronger for it - more willing to keep fighting the good fight, and more understanding of the hardships we on the left always face.

by Zwackus on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 09:13:21 PM EST
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What is there to say?

By their actions the Democratic Party thinks things are basically fine and all that needs to be done is some tuck-pointing around the edges and hanging some bright shining objects up so everyone can "oooo" and "ahhhh."

Until that changes, and nobody reading this has the power to change it, nothing will change.

by ATinNM on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 06:21:19 PM EST
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I have to agree with your comment.  However, that points to a way in which the "Leftist Teabaggers" notion could be quite positive - getting seriously aggressive in primaries, and knocking people out.  It's worked wonders on the Republican side, where many who were wavering after Obama's victory were brought back to the farthest right-wing fringe by the activists.

Admittedly, the Teabaggers have some big advantages, in being funded by rich crazies and promoted by national television celebrities and networks, and accorded all the praise and respect that any mouthpiece of the far right will get.  The fact that it has required all this to build any support at all for their utter and complete insanity is telling, though.

by Zwackus on Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 at 09:16:49 PM EST
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