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The problem is not so much that we use gas for power generation, but that we use it for baseload generation. That's what's wrong with current policies.

Gas-fired plants are the ideal complement to wind in that they can step in when wind is not available (and hydro or pumped storage is not), so the goal is not to eliminate gas, but to keep for the most valuable roles.

For district heating, I doubt that nukes can do it. The Danes have been pursuing biomass CHP plants and that can be peplicated in a number of places.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 8th, 2010 at 09:13:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Garbage incinerators also produce heat that's put to use in district heating. Hypothetically, they could also drive generators, but I don't know whether they actually do at present.

Of course, incinerating garbage does pose the problem of rendering unrecoverable a number of non-renewable raw materials that could otherwise have been reused. Whether this will become a dealbreaker remains to be seen, but it is a problem that we will have to deal with, because burning off perfectly good reusable resources is a luxury we can ill afford in this century.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jan 8th, 2010 at 01:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Garbage incinerators also produce heat that's put to use in district heating. Hypothetically, they could also drive generators, but I don't know whether they actually do at present.

The new garbage incinerator here in Uppsala is a state-of-the-art CHP system. A bit over 100 MW IIRC.

Of course, incinerating garbage does pose the problem of rendering unrecoverable a number of non-renewable raw materials that could otherwise have been reused.

This problem is easily overcome. When Sweden signed the antipersonell mine ban treaty and couldn't use AP-mines anymore, we renamned them "defence charges". Hence, we got the brilliant idea of renaming garbage incineraion "energy recycling". ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Jan 8th, 2010 at 02:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the energy I'm worried about.

It's the copper, aluminium and iron that goes up in the air and is scattered to the winds...

Or, at best, is oxidised so far into uselessness that recovering them becomes a real energy hog.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jan 9th, 2010 at 03:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
burning off perfectly good reusable resources is a luxury we can ill afford in this century

Butning off perfectly good petrochemical feedstuffs is another thing we can ill afford.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 9th, 2010 at 03:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The nuke people I've been talking with discounted nuclear in the district heating role, because they can make power instead, and that's more valuable. Sure, if you reduce power generation a bit you will get far more energy back in the form of 100 degree water, but you can only sell that at capacity during a few winter months. During the rest of the year you'll have an oversized nuke. That costs money. What if you instead build a small reserve turbine that you shut down during the winter? Well, these turbines are pricy. They might well cost hundreds of millions of euros. It's hard to make that work economically when you by definition need to keep this reserve turbine offline as long as the district heating system is online.

Of course, a week after they've explained that it was an economic impossibility Fortum went out and said they'd like to incorporate district heating for Helsingfors (Helsinki) when they build their new nuke at Lovisa...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Jan 8th, 2010 at 02:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any power plant can be used for district heating because the temperature of the outside cooling circuit (the cold temperature of the heat engine) is usually high enough to be used for heating pipes.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 9th, 2010 at 03:41:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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