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When I read the introductory course in history slavery was cited as the most important reason for the fall of western Rome. Heavier demands on remaining free population drove not only agricultural labourers but also craftsmen to the latifundias, moving the economy from city-centered money-based to latifundia-centered product-based. Attempts to bind peasants to the soil (serfdom) and binding free sons to their fathers trade (basically castesystem, origin of guilds) did not stop the trend. When the empire fell the social institutions of the middle ages was already in place.

Eastern Rome (the old, rich centre of Greek civilization) was apparently not as dependent on slave labour or at least did not follow the west as far down the road.

Admittedly I took history at a rather marxist history department (means of production, means of production, means of production).

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by A swedish kind of death on Wed Dec 15th, 2010 at 03:46:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That view is substantiated, if not made directly, in Tainter's work.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Dec 15th, 2010 at 02:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The craftsmen and farmers moving into the protection of the latifundias fits both with the imperial decrees making professions hereditary, with the onerous impositions on the cities to farm fallow land in their hinterland and the debasement of the coinage. Tainter cites references in original sources complaining about all of the above and cites numerous instances where, especially in the provinces, the common people appealed to and/or welcomed barbarians for the relief they provided from taxes as well as the improved security they offered over what was previously available.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Dec 15th, 2010 at 08:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And this argument seems to directly contradict the notion that complexity was the problem.  The problem was not complexity exceeding the energy returns possible from a particular agro-technical base.  Rather, the problem was that bad political decisions led to an economic pattern which destroyed the agro-technical base on which the society was founded.  At that point, OF COURSE there aren't enough resources to go around - the society is poorer, as a whole.

In general, arguments based on energy returns, technological advancements, and ecological limits are interesting in the close attention they pay to factors overlooked.  However, to the degree that they take attention away from what were (in my opinon, at any rate) purely political decisions, or the outcomes of fights between political and economic elites, they are a serious distraction.  In a way, they seem part and parcel of the same project that underlies much of economics, to remove a large part of human life from the realm of agency and choice, and reify it as a force of nature.

by Zwackus on Thu Dec 16th, 2010 at 07:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was not the complexity per se, but the cost of that complexity that came to be unsustainable. When wealth yeilded by the conquered provinces no longer exceeded the cost of conquest the situation began to change. This was a centuries long process. And with the end of expansion came the end of plentiful slaves. That was a major energy input to the empire. When those slaves died of old age, the plague or overwork they could not readily be replaced. But there was a time lag involved and the market for slaves did not disappear but did become more expensive.

But meanwhile the costs of of the systems that had to be supported rose but income did not. The empire still had to be defended, but that defense no longer generated a surplus. Rome still needed grain to feed the urban masses. Roads and aqueducts still needed to be maintained.

To me the argument is reasonably clear. The Western Roman Empire ran largely on slave labor. That slave labor was cheap when the Empire was expanding but got progressively more expensive and scarce after the time of Augustus. The military, the civil engineering and the administrative apparatus had all been developed when slave labor was cheap and abundant. They became more difficult to support as slave labor became expensive and less abundant, but the needs did not change. This was especially problematic during emergencies, such as barbarian invasions, when large amounts of money were needed. In order to meet these challenges, the Empire essentially turned to cannibalism and began consuming its base in a downward spiral that led to collapse.

To say that the problem was that the emperors made bad political decisions is a facile non-answer. The basic pattern of Roman society had been set during the middle of the Republic when the conquests began. Policies such as not taxing provinces in the Italian Peninsula may have been unwise in the long term, but they were eminently practical politically at the time and by the time the problems struck home such practices were traditions dating back hundreds of years, longer than the USA has existed. Likewise with slave based agriculture, domestic service and handicrafts.

The emperor required some acceptance from those he ruled. To overturn traditions and privileges dating back a hundred years or more into the Republic and imposing taxes on people unused to taxes, imposing taxes on the most powerful men in an historically oligarchic society, overturning the social basis of the society by uprooting its slave basis, etc. was simply a non-starter. A thousand years later the Norman Kings of England and the Kings of France, Spain and Portugal, with varying degrees of success, began the process of breaking down the power of the nobles, a process that took the better part of another millennium.

But perhaps I am misreading your comment. What better political decisions would you suggest that they have made and how do you suggest they could have carried them out?

To me the analogy between the problems of the emperors with the aristocracy and the problems we currently have with the financial sector seems familiar. As does the problems with a massive increase in the cost of the energy source on which our civilizations have been built. But I believe we have a better chance of changing those aspects of our society than did the Romans. Our population is vastly better educated and the existing system is less well entrenched, not explicitly included in the Constitution and of more recent origin than was the case with Rome. And while no energy source now available offers the EROI of $2/bl. oil, which provided ratios of over 50/1, ratios of 20/1 are available, if we can embrace them. And better resources may still emerge.

Or our current elites can continue on their pigheaded path, devouring the basis of the US economy for their short term profit, until everything collapses and then they may prevent the emergence of anything better. But I believe we are less doomed than was Rome, but perhaps not by so much as we would wish.

 

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Dec 16th, 2010 at 11:22:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why, I'm surprised you failed to notice a polemic! :=)

I'm not saying that they had real institutionally viable alternatives.  Your point about How Institutions Think makes sense.  However, putting aside fundamental political decisions such as "the elite will not pay taxes" and "slave labor will be promoted with no limit" as if they are on par with the laws of thermodynamics, beyond human control and unchangeable, seems a serious cop out, and a way to skirt the fact that it was stupid elite decisions to promote their own greed that destroyed Roman society.  

Having already cut off both their feet, it's not surprising that they failed to win the footrace.  But taking that mutilation as a given, setting it aside, and then focusing on their crawling strategy as the main cause of failure is missing the point.  

by Zwackus on Fri Dec 17th, 2010 at 04:31:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As usual, I don't think it's either/or.

Emperors were nominally the decision makers. But after Diocletian, who was possibly the last emperor willing and able to invent and implement a strategy for the empire as a whole, the job became a placeholder. Emperors had the perks - the wealth and ostentation - but in practice they were owned by the army factions that originally sponsored them.

The post became a kind of ironic democracy with figureheads "elected" by one faction for immediate financial benefit, expected to fight off challenges from all other factions, and regularly "unelected" - fatally - if the power balance shifted or if a performance review suggested that performance was unacceptable.

Even if the army chose someone with real vision and talent - and there was no reason why it should - the turnover was brutal, and long-term management became impossible.

So Rome drifted along with zombie traditions and institutions. It wasn't a case of emperors making bad decisions, but of emperors being unable to plan and manage at all.

With an imperial court that was indifferent to most of the population, and with self-aggrandisement the official state religion (as it always had been) concentration of wealth and power became inevitable.

The underlying problem was that Rome had absolutely no ethic of mutual aid. There were patron/client relationships, obvious nepotism, and the lingering remains of an ethic of heroic military self-sacrifice.

But the idea of advancement was purely personal and tribal. It was a purely Hobbesian culture, with no concept of government as a collaboration that might place limits on personal ambition.

The Hobbesian approach worked while there was territory to gain, but it was a disaster once the physical limits of empire were reached and the battle turned inward, like a political cancer.

And yes - the US clearly shares the same ethics, and is headed for the same outcome.

It astonishes me that more people don't realise that the two huge fasces in Congress aren't just there for show - or even that they're there at all.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Dec 17th, 2010 at 05:07:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the time of Diocletain, though, things were too far gone to be salvageable.  The Gracchus brothers had the right ideas, at the right time, and they were killed for it, and nobody really revisited the issue of land distribution again.  That is the sort of political choice I'm talking about - just because an emperor did or didn't do something doesn't mean that that the limits of political choice were reached.  Every economic arrangement, unconscious or not, is a political choice, and every day it is chosen again.  The fact that it's not commonly addressed, and is often forgotten about, does not make that point any less salient.

As far as the point regarding mutual aid, does anybody really have it?  

by Zwackus on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 05:13:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been and still are cultures and communities that have strong communitarian traditions. Barn raisings.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 10:45:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Finland there is the ancient, but still active custom of the Talkoot

I've been in least 5 of these this year.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 10:50:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Activity in Talkoot is highly valued.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 10:52:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tainter actually makes a point on a different subject that is relevant here. He notes that some have complained that the Romans never developed technology. He then goes on to argue that the question is not why Rome failed to develop technology but why Europe did over a thousand years later. (He does not seem to have been aware of the incipient industrial revolution in Ming Dynasty China.) The same argument can be employed for the question of why the Romans accepted slavery and why they established the tax policies that they did, even if there are more and earlier precedents for abolition of slavery than for industrial revolutions.

The US Constitution borrowed extensively from the Roman Republican constitution. But we already had slavery  in most of the colonies at the time of the Revolution. Vermont abolished slavery first, in 1777, and Massachusetts in 1783. Pennsylvania, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island and New York all adopted gradual measures prior to 1800 that lead to an eventual end of slavery. But south of the Mason-Dixon Line it was a different story.

Is there a commonly accepted explanation as to why slavery is accepted or abolished? If so, I am unfamiliar with it. Now that I think of it that seems surprising.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Dec 17th, 2010 at 10:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is slavery economic?

Of course it depends on the price of getting slaves, if they can be captured cheap enough (or sell themselves as indentured servants) it will almost always be economic (because they can literally be worked to death), but if slaves has to be given a subsistence-level of food, clothing and housing, their conditions has to be compared to poor free people.

As I understand it most agriculture is most efficient in family-sized holdings (actual size dependent on technology) because at least long-term managing soils and animals is a lot about judgement and care. Taylorism seems to work only with certain crops like cotton where you had fairly uniform movements. So in most agriculture it would not be economical to keep slaves if they are not captured cheap enough.

Note that the north-south divide starts at the time when the cotton gin has recently been invented, Britain has destroyed Indian production of textiles and moved it to Britain. Britain has also lost the US colonies, banned slave trade, and enforcing that ban on others. When the divide reaches conflict the South has 75% of the worlds cotton production.

On the other hand institutions has a strong path-dependency so slavery in the south can very well be explained with it already existing, going back to the triangle trade. If slavery had not existed, poor labourers would probably had sufficed just as well. As they did after the abolition.

So I would postulate that slavery is instituted on a large scale when there is an abundance of slaves and stays until it is uneconomical and some shock causes the institutions to change.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 06:55:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a plausible explanation for the origins of slavery. There is a well known cross-cultural survey in anthropology from the '70s, IIRCC, that might include slavery as one of the surveyed characteristics of the societies shown. I may even have parts of it in one or more of the books in my library, if I can find it.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 10:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I was more thinking about slavery as a big institution. Slavery as such is more problematic as slavery/serfdom/prison labour/poverty tends to blur in the edges.

I think it has been with us about as long as other property. Is slavery modelled on chattel or the other way around?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 12:36:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Domesticated livestock probably precedes slavery, because slaves are smarter than cattle. So you need to have sufficient force multipliers available to make the slaves to slavers ratio economical. That means weapons, organisation and other things that are normally associated with sedentary cultures.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 01:01:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chattel and cattle both derive from the same late latin root: capitale.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 03:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As in capitaleists.
by njh on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 05:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Slavery seems to go back around 4,000 years.  Those who study proto-Indo-European have deduced dosos as the PIE word for slave.

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere
by ATinNM on Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 01:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In general, arguments based on energy returns, technological advancements, and ecological limits are interesting in the close attention they pay to factors overlooked.  However, to the degree that they take attention away from what were (in my opinon, at any rate) purely political decisions, or the outcomes of fights between political and economic elites, they are a serious distraction.  In a way, they seem part and parcel of the same project that underlies much of economics, to remove a large part of human life from the realm of agency and choice, and reify it as a force of nature.

I agree that any approach can be used to distract from rather than illuminate a problem. But the political decisions, IMO, have to be viewed in the terms of How Institutions Think, as described by Mary Douglas. I have written on this subject in comments that TGB turned into a diary: Malleable social reality. One of the comments in that diary has a portion of Douglas' argument quoted. Christianity was an available option as a state religion in the time of Constantine, so he could make it and official religion by decree.  An effective alternate understanding and organization of Roman society in the Western Empire was not similarly available to my knowledge. That is a major reason to push alternative organizations of contemporary societies and economies into the public sphere today - so they are familiar and available to be considered in case the opportunity arises.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Dec 17th, 2010 at 02:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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