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FYI.  I don't know that much about Denmark, but I know that in Spain Vestas got quite the surprise when Gamesa up and decided to become a major competitor.  Vestas didn't fully divest from Gamesa Eolica until 2002.  At that point, Vestas became a marginal player in the Spanish market. And they got quite a shock when Gamesa entered into other markets in Europe. Suddenly this company that their models got off the ground was a major competitor.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was not really a surprise to Vestas... Gamesa bought out the license it had from Vestas, so this was done with Vestas' consent, and in the clear knowledge that they'd compete on their own and likely take over a large portion of the Spanish market.

Spanish business is very protectionist, but in a much less open way than the French are - this is the reason why Gamesa got the license from Vestas in the first place - because otherwise Vestas couldn't have sold in the Spanish market.

Gamesa is still not that big outside of Spain or out of projects by Iberdrola and other Spanish investors.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 08:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was not really a surprise to Vestas... Gamesa bought out the license it had from Vestas, so this was done with Vestas' consent, and in the clear knowledge that they'd compete on their own and likely take over a large portion of the Spanish market.

That's interesting, because that's not the impression I got from newsarticles from the time.

Gamesa is still not that big outside of Spain or out of projects by Iberdrola and other Spanish investors.

I definitely get the Iberdrola connection.  I ran the numbers from the Spanish wind energy associations wind farm database.  I know that there are a number of small development corporations that develop a wind farm that aren't wholly owned by Iberdrola and Iberdrola Renewables.  But the relationship (in Spain) seems to be stronger in turns of the % of Gamesa turbines in Iberdrola projects, than in terms of the % of Iberdrola projects as a % of total Gamesa sales.  That was something I honed in on while I was writing.

What I'm most interested in is less a matter of the development of wind farm development than the relationship between Gamesa and the Basque regional government.  It's that political science thing.

I do appreciate getting some things about the distribution issues cleared up.  I know now that I need to go back through what I've written for my paper and change some things. The thesis was basically the importance of the Iberdrola-Gamesa relationship, and the role that the Basque government came in and had in terms of fostering the development of sectoral organizations like the energy cluster (cluster energia)


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 10:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure you can draw some valid conclusions from the effect of the Basque government and Gamesa working to save industry in the region. But it's very hard to frame it globally, as you're trying.

Spain could almost be designated a captive market in wind for its own companies, like India.  Within that frame, with strong Iberdrola support, Gamesa became a power.  But Gamesa has had very limited success when moving to other markets.

Their entry into the US is particularly telling, as their technology was not up to other European standards.  Without the support of Iberdrola in the US, Gamesa would have a very hard time.  Despite strong relationships with Pennsylvania unions, and the use of converted factories there, Gamesa has had a very hard time finding equilibrium.

The problem of success stories from captive markets not being able to replicate that in more mature markets is not limited to Spain, though by starting small Acciona is certainly moving forward.  Suzlon's very tough and expensive entry into the US is a spectacular example of a company very successful, even controlling, of a particular market, yet having a very rocky entry into a more sophisticated market.  Suzlon is not out of the woods yet, and without its purchase of REpower would be even deeper in the hole.

The Basque offshore cluster is but a shadow of the North Sea - Baltic cluster, and will have virtually no influence outside of perhaps small Spanish development.  At this stage, there is no technology nor expertise replicable to the wider offshore space, Gamesa's 4.5 MW turbine notwithstanding.

Acciona and Gamesa have had tough times in China as well.  This is a symptom of coming from a captive market, where the bar is set lower, but is not recognized until higher standards are needed.  Smaller Acciona has the strategic advantage here because being smaller, they are able to adjust quicker with their very capable engineering.  (Im writing about the wind division, not the entire company.)

To get a clearer picture of the split between Gamesa and Vestas, and the longer-term results, might well take some more digging.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 at 05:51:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then again, entry into a foreign market is not only determined by the quality and price of the product and relationship with developers, see Enercon and the USA.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 at 05:57:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's finally a chink in the GE patent armor, as Mitsubishi won the latest round, that they are not infringing.  As part of their claim, they stated that GE's initial patent was not fairly awarded, which I'm sure pleased Enercon.  Enercon sits very comfortably north of the border in Canada, quietly nursing their top line reputation.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 at 06:08:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way. What do you make of the market share stats on page 6 of the German 2009 stats? That jump of Enercon to 60% primarily at the expense of Vestas.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 at 10:00:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Amazing that Enercon can capture such a huge portion of a mature market.  Likely based upon performance and reputation, as well as an exceptional O&M infrastructure.  Unbelievable (actually, quite believable) that this technology is banned from the US because of patent infringement, when Enercon wrote the book on that technology as the first variable speed turbine.

i suspect in the coming years REpower will grow some, GE will really begin to capture market share with their new 2.5MW machine, Nordex should increase, and if Fuhrländer can increase production and marketing of the W2E turbine, they could cut into Enercon.  But it will be tough, and I wouldn't be surprised if GE focuses elsewhere.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 at 03:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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