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No, because refusal to trade - even though it can be very effective - is too easily subverted as a caste marker and lifestyle choice.

To weaken AC I think you need to make its true value system explicit, and then destroy it. You can't do that by shopping elsewhere. Disapproval is still a form of participation and acceptance.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:31:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am a shareholder in Finland and Europe, whether I like it or not. I have to participate; it's how I participate that it is important to me.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:04:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shareholder or stakeholder?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 09:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I pay taxes. What would you say I am?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A stekeholder. Shareholders don't pay user fees.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:45:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
State pension?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:48:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A joint share company is entirely the wrong metaphor for a country, Magic.

Unless you can make some statements in joint-share-company space which map relatively faithfully to country space.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:01:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't mention joint stock companies.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is a shareholder?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:51:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A subset of stakeholder. The strict definition of shareholder would only apply to joint stock company owners and the company itself, agreed. 'Stakeholder' is used widely of anyone with an 'interest' in an 'organization' - financial or otherwise.

My use of the subset word 'shareholder' was a 'reframing'. Reframing necessarily involves changing perceptions. And thus challenging definitions.

A shareholder definition may include the following:

  • The right to vote on matters such as elections to the board of directors.
  • The right to propose shareholder resolutions.
  • The right to share in distributions of the company's income.
  • The right to purchase new shares issued by the company.
  • The right to a company's assets during a liquidation of the company.

Apart from the last item, it is possible to find equivalents in the relationship of a citizen to a democratic state. It's only 'what if' thinking, of course. It happens to be useful in my line of work - it may not be in yours. Not all blind alleys turn out to be blind.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 03:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A stekeholder. Shareholders don't pay user fees.

Were you laughing when you typed that? I hope so. 'cause we all know "stakeholder" entered the lexicon of polite conversation from the mouths of corporate management consultants attempting to conscript persons having no legal recourse over the governance of corporate operations in intra-industry propaganda wars.

Moreover, shareholders of public- and private-traded corporations most certainly pay "user fees" to own an interest in future income of the corporation, the property right of which to redeem or re-sell.

A joint share company is entirely the wrong metaphor for a country, Magic.

Country? Certainly you meant to type jurisdiction, even nation. Country is passé, déclassé among persons in certain quarters who believe civilized people do not organize themselves according to either their geographical location or boundaries.

When officers of state --an incorporated, formally established trust, continuously operating according to by-laws-- unilaterally declares a person a "citizen" of the state and exercises state "interests" in the social and economic activity, liberty, and life of said person so as to benefit the ongoing concerns of the bureaucracy, then said person most certainly is, voluntarily or involuntarily, and represents a share of the state enterprise.

Presumably, enfranchised citizens, or "shareholders," may exercise their rights to control state governance.

Incarcerated, minor, institutionalized, flora and fauna persons are stakeholders.

Unless you can make some statements in joint-share-company space which map relatively faithfully to country space.

say what?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 12:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Were you laughing when you typed that?

I was playing bullshit bingo.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 04:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
naughtyhead!

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 07:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
To weaken AC I think you need to make its true value system explicit,

feed the 'good' wolf, and starve the other?

something has to be done to stop wolves clothing themselves as sheep, that's for sure...

teaching people often and early to know how to discriminate between truth and truthiness would be a good start.

would a 'sheep' (harmless) capitalism still be capitalism?

my plan is to survive capitalism, with subgoals of waiting out the time till enough people help change it into some other, better, fairer form of economic game, while attempting to turn some of its less noxious, more whimsically endearing aspects to my advantage.

it is the (mostly shitty) hand we've been dealt, after all...

what really makes discrimination hard is when we have already fallen for the lies we have been told, internalised and tell ourselves, and been conscripted into furthering a dishonest paradigm.

accepting it as is, as a summum bonum is a treacherous ethical minefield we should know better than to inhabit, by now, imo.

if getting the banana out of the bottle represents the wisest goal for our species, or the greatest happiness for the greatest number, we better learn that just grabbing and pulling with a closed fist won't do the trick. that's present capitalism's attitude to the planet's resources, and a lot of broken bottles and bloody hands prove it...

with enough, patience, creativity, and inventiveness, i believe we can make a green version of practically anything, and thereby lose a lot of the grief that living in the middle of the muddle of polluted life has necessitated.

this will pull out and exalt skills much more determinant of a good future for us all than the presently glorified arts of swindling the gullible, aka casino, predator crapitalism.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
No, because refusal to trade - even though it can be very effective - is too easily subverted as a caste marker and lifestyle choice.

good point, but we must take responsibility for allowing that to happen.

what you said right there is the best definition of 'mediated' i've come across.

we should focus on the 'effective' part, and do some subverting of our own! turn dem tables...

caste markers as a language, for example, there's no real need to go that road any more, especially compared to during our grandparents' generation. still a long way to go...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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