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It's easy to know what the electric car will cost you: you set the charger to only top it off when power is below a certain price. Hell, if power gets expensive enough you might sell some of it back to the grid.

How is this different from using petrochemicals where the price varies day by day? People have seldom known how much their car is going to cost.

When demand is high you increase the cost to discourage unnecesary usage. What is the problem?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 at 10:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
two problems; Firstly; absolute average price price. Some forms of renewable energy just cost too much. No one will adopt the electric car if gas is flat out cheaper than electrons. Thus, for example, solar is at current prices the enemy. Secondly, and this remains a problem even if the base price comes down, the intermittency of the base power sources, wind and sun, mean that prices will vary, and vary a great deal, on more than just a day/night cycle.
It will not be a practical option for people to not charge their car before they go to work. Worse, the problem is that we want people to rework industrial processes that are energy hungry on scales utterly disconnected from anything you encounter in your day to day life to use electrons instead of coal or gas, and steel mills cannot just not cease operation for days on end because it happens to be cloudy and quiet. Prices matter. Stability of supply is important.
by Thomas on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 at 11:32:59 AM EST
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You're back in your strawman world of 100% wind and solar, aren't you?

It will not be a practical option for people to not charge their car before they go to work.

No? How much charge do they need? What if most people only use a small proportion of their car's mileage each day? I put diesel in my car about once every three-four weeks. Lots of people only drive ten or twenty miles a day. What do I need, half an hour charge time in 24hours? An hour? If the sun goes out or the atmosphere stops I might have a problem, but on those occasions I can just pay the higher price if it's important.

Prices matter.

Yes, they do. They modify behaviour. Even of big industrial concerns. That's what we want them for.

You're making the assumption that practices based on the assumption that you can be profligate with cheap energy will carry over into a situation with expensive energy.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 at 12:17:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I am flat out stating that a future where electricity is expensive is a future where carbon emissions will be high. We need to replace carbon source energy inputs with equivalently priced, or cheaper non-carbon inputs, because if we do not, governments that take the problem seriously will loose elections to governments that do not, and production will move to the places where it can burn all the coal it can find.
Fiat and political will only gets you so far, and while nuclear is, indeed, a cheap ass technocratic answer to the problem to global warming that lets people continue right on consuming vast quantities of cheap energy that is a good thing because it means the only people you have to persuade /defeat politically are the entrenched interests of the coal and gas industry instead of absolutely everyone.
by Thomas on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 at 01:13:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
You're making the assumption that practices based on the assumption that you can be profligate with cheap energy will carry over into a situation with expensive energy.

yeah some energy valhalla, where we're all wearing electric suits and roaring through megawatts till sparks are flying out our fingers.

there seems to be no awareness that we don't actually need to be permanently plugged in to some grid the whole time.

this is a blind spot, and is very culture-centric, as we argue here in yurp about how many teras we 'need', and apparently will never be glutted by the use of, while millions of people could already be using a couple of panels in places like nigeria and running a clinic fridge and some lights with.

instead they will probably have some corrupt bureaucrats negotiating a nuke plant for them with some 'western' company!

and all this with the planet temperature rising, and water shortages looming. solar and wind don't gobble water, once they're up and running..

it's effing lunatic, and what's especially distressing is how many intelligent people can't see this for what it is: a last ditch, extremely well-financed effort to keep the public dependent and ignorant, about something that we have the tech to give everyone some of, and that could be useful in so many ways.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 at 03:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and I think your attitude is dangerous. To mankind, and the world. Higher energy costs is not a good outcome for anyone, and especially not for the poor of the world, because they will not be able to afford it, or, most likely, be able to field the technical cadre to maintain a network of windmills, the smart grid they need, or the load balancing facilities to keep things going, ect. The monstrous centralization of a nuclear power station has upsides, as well as downsides - for India, and other stable-but-poor countries manning and maintaining these stations is easier than farming the entirety of the countryside for energy.

There is also the basic fact that if the choice the public is offered is one between costly energy and frying the planet, most likely the planet will fry.  Maybe not. Maybe the current generation is more righteous than mankind has been so far. But is that really something you want to bet the world on?

Re: Water. Two words: Nuclear desalinization.

by Thomas on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 at 05:16:44 PM EST
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You want to claim that wind energy is too high-tech for developing countries but nuclear isn't?... Huh.

You should know that India is a wind power pioneer, too, with almost 11 GW installed (nuclear: 4.12 GW). Suzlon even bought majority in a top German manufacturer (REpower).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 05:20:38 AM EST
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You want to claim that wind energy is too high-tech for developing countries but nuclear isn't?... Huh.

what can you say?

they're teaching grandmothers in india to install solar, maybe they can moonlight at westinghouse!

the bit about how inefficient it would be to harvest energy from the countryside too...

obviously a grid for their nuke nirvana would be worth installing, but empowering them off the grid, not so much.

concern trolling, poor planet, it's dying of coal fumes, what it surely needs now is to be bathed in radioactive rays, while declaiming how solar energy will pave the world with cement.

it beggars belief...like most topdown -is there any other kind?- capitalism.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 09:30:22 PM EST
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No one will adopt the electric car if gas is flat out cheaper than electrons.

Even if we were to magically conjure up enough petroleum reserves for that scenario, it's nothing a 2000 % gasoline tax can't solve.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 9th, 2010 at 12:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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