And - to a lesser extent - vice versa.
It's not about direct influence, but about the legitimisation of social relationships that are then empowered to influence by the fake pretence of significance and sanctification from both sides.
Disestablishing the CofE would effectively destroy it. It would rapidly fragment into a rump of faithful over-55s, various mutually exclusive packs of psychotic god-bothering nutters, and a property development arm which would have to start selling off land almost immediately.
Currently under the radar but potentially far more worrying in the UK are 'prosperity churches' preaching an exciting and dynamic gospel of you-can-have-it-all capitalist indulgence sanctified by a bit of bible quoting and charismatic preaching. (Same old trick, new remix.)
There are quite a few here now. They're as rock-star flashy as their US counterparts, which makes them seem much more glamorous and accessible than the post-menopausal and rather comical CofE.
But they're infinitely more corrosive socially. And some of them have discovered that TV is fairly cheap, and an ideal recruiting medium, so their influence is only going to grow.
10-20 years from now we're going to have our own home grown tele-fundies and megachurches. And that's not going to be fun or pretty - for gays, for women, or for anyone who disagrees with them.
One of their services was even televised by the BBC on a Sunday morning a few months back. I don't know how I came across it, but I sat there for the whole hour, fascinated (and trying to spot people I know, but there weren't any. Which is kind of weird in a city this size. The last time the BBC's Question Time was here, I recognised a third of the questioners.)
I think it was very good at selling inclusion, or at least the outward appearance of it. That's not something the C of E has done terribly well, historically. You would indeed need the help of God if you Sat In Somebody's Pew when I was growing up.
Shall we go sometime? I Have a Theory and I'd quite like to check it.
(I suspect the name is a pun on Peterborough's real Sunday worship: the Queensgate shopping centre.)
Sure we can go. But I warn you, the only way I can keep a straight face is by singing enthusiastically.
I've a sneaking, guilty fondness for traditional Anglican hymns, with their whiff of old hassocks, school assembly and Empire. But putting a son through Scouts has sent me to church often enough in the past few years to get an idea of the current hymnal. I remember once seeing a CD of them advertised while flicking past a God channel, and taking some convincing I hadn't happened on a spoof.
On the upside, it doesn't matter if you can't sing or don't know the tune, because it can't get any worse.
All together now...My God is an awesome God...
No new posts on the forums since last summer.
Are they still going, or have they been bought by Ikea?
They didn't have those at Trentham Parish, I can tell you.
OMG. It's gone happy clappy. Wonder if you can now choose where to sit without a detailed map. Or if it's any less embarrassing to whack the rood screen with a Girl Guide flag.
It's 172MB and takes half an hour to download.
But it's hard not to like a church that asks questions like 'What are we like' without irony. (Or question marks.)
The point of the current system is that the state and the church legitimise each other.
The contrary argument is that they now de-legitimise each other more than vice versa. The Church makes the state look sectarian and not inclusive of the racial/religious diversity that is "modern Britain", and the close association with the State makes the Church unattractive to the majority of the young who are alienated from, or at least disinterested in, anything to do with the state. (It also makes the Church unattractive to the fundies who disapprove of Labour equality policy etc.)
Where I do agree is that if the official CofE imploded, it would more likely than not be replaced by a plethora of even nuttier sects and Churches. Those who are most critical of the establishment churches are often even more credulous when it comes to the nuttier varieties of same. notes from no w here
So they're already beyond reach.
It isn't seriously interested in inclusiveness, either. (Clearly.)
The legitimisation is entirely ritualistic. The CofE is really one of the last remaining links and relics of the Empire. Losing it would mean a final admission that the days of empire and immense significance are over - at least among the Westminster, shires and Belgravia set who care about these things.
The oiks elsewhere are hardly relevant in this, even though they happen to form a popular majority.
The CofE hasn't been seriously interested in young people - unless they're in a very narrow band of middle-class youngness - for at least fifty years now.
From memory, I'd underline "at least".
I also agree that disestablishment would be the end of the CofE. The strands of Low Church Evangelicalism, Middle Church stodgy conventionalism, and High Church Anglo-Catholicism (to simplify) have only held together over so many years thanks to the snob-appeal tradition of the ancient established Church. A few Evangelicals might peel off towards Nonconformist Evangelical denominations (but mind the steps, you're going down the class stairs rather fast), and a few spikies might turn RC (no social decline there), but by and large Anglicans hold on for prestige reasons. A disestablished CofE in which each local church would gain autonomy, would pretty soon lead to a break-up.
