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I'm still too chicken to stipulate on paper that in case my personal health would deteriorate below a certain point, the medical experts can switch off the machines or medication. But I do support it. In the case of the Out of Free Will proposal, my adherence to maximum personal freedoms makes it hard to not be supportive. I will do everything it takes to prevent my elderly days from becoming horrible, but having my own choice to decide over my own death, and to be free of any judgement about  suicide through illegal means and/or means traumatizing for others, is entirely sensible.

A parallel between the financial world and euthanasia is off because there is strict regulation on cases of euthanasia, while the current crisis shows there should be strict regulation in the financial world. Good government works. The exisiting and clear regulation on euthanasia shows precisely what is so wrong with the financial markets.

by Nomad on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 05:57:47 AM EST
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I don't think the financial industry comparison is too far off at all. While true that increasing the amount of regulation can reduce the opportunities to act on perverse incentives, Stiglitz (and Ken Arrow before him) won his Nobel prize partly for his work proving that regulation could never sufficiently correct for institutionalized perverse incentives. That becomes very problematic when dealing with issues of permanence, such as assisted suicide (or capital punishment).
by santiago on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 09:31:45 AM EST
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what you would mean with "institutionalized perverse incentives" in the case of euthanasia.
by Nomad on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 11:36:45 AM EST
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The medical system itself, and agents within that system, including health care administrators, providers (when they are not compensated in a fee for service format), and taxpayers/insurance-premium-payers, all stand to gain if someone opts for less expensive end-of-life care, which would include assisted suicide, than if someone opted for the more expensive care to prolong one's problematic life.  That's the textbook case of a perverse institutional incentive to encourage someone to die instead of living a while longer.
by santiago on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:34:37 PM EST
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your response to InWales upthread:

your medical system administrators want to "bump you off" in benign ways by being able to create a moral discourse around personal responsibility in opting for less expensive end-of-life comfort care, rather than burdening the state and your care providers with extending your problematic life.

If that's a case of "institutionalized perverse incentives", this is a non-issue, as the initiative which leads to euthanasia lies solely with the patient - this is so in the Netherlands, and I expect it to be likewise in other countries. The initiative simply does not lie with medical staff, or insurance companies.

by Nomad on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 11:50:38 AM EST
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<teabagger>[Death Panel™ Alert!]</teabagger>

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:10:57 PM EST
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The so-called "death panels" proposed in the US were actually a way to try to mitigate this recognized perverse incentive, by forcing government care providers to talk regularly with patients about what patients really wanted with the lives rather than what providers, biased by budget worries, might assume that patients want.
by santiago on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:42:55 PM EST
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Why is it a "non-issue?" Unless you buy into the neoclassical assumption of social science that all actors are all-knowing and all-powerful agents (and I presume you don't because no one on this site really does given the disparaging things we all say here about "neoliberals" and "neoclassical" or "monetary"  economists) then you have to assume the corollary -- that institutional arrangements (e.g. market-oriented discourse, patriarchy, rights versus obligations, etc.) are the primary influences on individual "choices" to do anything.  

Terminally ill or otherwise hopeless people may choose suicide because they don't want to inconvenience others within a language framework that ascribes, to varying degrees, moral deficiency to people who use social resources without being able to pay for them. Saying that suicide is a normal option for care rather than the current radical option that it is can help to change language and institutions to bias people toward death.  I find that extremely problematic as our societies grow more and more dependent on community relationships instead of individual independence.

Legal suicide is incompatible with social medicine.  There just isn't any way around it that I can see.

by santiago on Wed Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:53:40 PM EST
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Talk of "institutionalized perverse incentives" (even while well argued) is a strawman defense to block personal self-determination, because the thesis "Legal suicide is incompatible with social medicine" is disproven by simply studying the working model in the Netherlands, done in practice, not just in thought. Point me at medical excesses, or steadily increasing rates of euthanasia, and I can reconsider.

A Dutch patient doesn't easily get into the position before euthanasia is a legal option. I need to strongly underline that we are talking about terminally ill people.

For those people there rests little difference between terminal sedation and euthanasia, except that the first is often imposed through medical staff - unless specifically ruled out by the patient. The second is a determined choice only available when specifically requested by the patient. The choice of dying in this situation is crystal clear - either you drift out in an opiod induced stupour, or with a self-determined choice. That is, simply, the right to die - people who want to face their death themselves. That does not make it an easy choice. And not many choose for it, as Dutch numbers unambiguously reflect.

As it is, I'm proud to live in a country where citizens are granded that final important right of self-determination.

by Nomad on Thu Feb 11th, 2010 at 05:30:25 AM EST
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my mother died in a london hospice, and it's basically the same approach, comfort and cessation of pain are prioritised over length of life, and if they are helped to the point of accelerating their demise, no-one will be anything but grateful, as their existence is no longer any benefit to anyone, least of all themselves.

the staff there were angels of mercy, and the atmosphere anything but sombre.

sounds like the dutch don't see a need to sequester this from normal medical practice, and why should they?

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 11th, 2010 at 06:44:42 AM EST
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Well, it's pretty far from "proving" anything on this topic, but it is true that the Dutch evidence shows a decrease in the proportion of deaths attributed to euthanasia and assisted suicide since peaking in the mid-1990's when euthanasia was a hot topic in public discourse.  The evidence is somewhat different in Oregon, but there is a reporting controversy there and the policy is more recent as well, and I don't know what it is in Belgium.

I think a better argument in favor of legalization of suicide is related to something In Whales mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Euthanasia and suicide happen anyway, so perhaps legalization provides a degree of transparency which helps to mitigate the perverse incentives at least where they involve direct encouragement of others to choose death.  (It wouldn't help the larger issue of presenting suicide as a morally superior option to continued treatment in order to avoid inconveniencing others.  This isn't refuted by the Dutch experience and data either, because it doesn't show what the Dutch experience would have been if suicide and euthanasia were not already established parts of Dutch discourse by the 1980's when data on such things became available.)

by santiago on Thu Feb 11th, 2010 at 12:42:29 PM EST
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