is to stifle debate. And why would they (and you) want to stifle debate? Because they know they'd lose on substance. The dangerously left populist and naturally popular position during a deep recession is for restricted immigration. But that's not popular with cheap-labor employing and 'race-to-the-bottom' globalization corporations, or with you and Migeru.

After the collapse of the Senate amnesty bill in 2007, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) joined with the National Council of La Raza and others to launch a campaign to smear the three largest mainstream groups making a case for tighter enforcement and lower immigration. At the center of this campaign was the designation of the Federation for American Immigration Reform as a "hate group" and the spread of that taint to Numbers USA and the Center for Immigration Studies. The announced goal was to pressure journalists and policymakers not to meet or speak with these organizations. Touted as an effort to "stop the hate," it was a thinly disguised move to stifle debate.

http://cis.org/Announcments/SPLC-Immigration-Panel


fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 02:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CIS was founded and funded by John Tanton, who founded and funded Federation for American Immigration Reform and is closely associated with Progressives For Immigration Reform. The CIS About Us page contains a long list of endorsements from almost entirely Republican pols, to whom we may add Phyllis Schafly, Frank Gaffney, William Bennett, Rich Lowry, John O'Sullivan...

Quoting from this nexus of rightwing anti-immigrationists is not doing your argument any good. It's hard to take it as a progressive point of view when you're backing it with cites from these people.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The English-as-national-language groups are also a pretty obvious giveaway on the wingnuttery here.  That's a bit extreme even among many Republicans.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the American Psychological Association was a eugenist and believer in forced sterilization:

Darwin's theory of evolution and Ernst Haeckel's recapitulation theory were large influences on Hall's career. These ideas prompted Hall to examine aspects of childhood development in order to learn about the inheritance of behavior. The subjective character of these studies made their validation impossible. His work also delved into controversial portrayals of the differences between women and men, as well as the concept of racial eugenics. . . .

Hall had no sympathy for the poor, the sick or those with developmental differences or disabilities. A firm believer in selective breeding and forced sterilization, Hall believed that any respect or charity toward those he viewed as physically, emotionally, or intellectually weak or "defective" simply interfered with the movement of natural selection toward the development of a super-race. Hall's social vision was a socialism of the right, a blueprint for the future German National Socialism that arose just a few years after his death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Stanley_Hall

In any case, Tanton appears to be the victim of a smear campaign, as I've noted elsewhere, and appears not to exercise any control over nor hold any office within CIS.

http://cis.org/About

What about the substance, that it is a good idea to restrict immigration during a period of very high unemployment? Seems like you're avoiding arguing on substance.

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
fairleft:
Tanton appears to be the victim of a smear campaign

If you're going to insist on that, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously enough to debate the idea?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A founder and first President of the American Psychological Association was a eugenist and believer in forced sterilization

I'm sorry, but I seem to have lost the thread of this.  I didn't see anyone here quote Stanley Hall as a role model, what did I miss?

Given that you're accusing others of avoiding arguing on substance, throwing out random comments about irrelevant and long-dead eugenicists seems a bit weird.  In fact, it could leave you open to accusations of trying to avoid answering the very specific points that have been made to you about Tanton.

by Sassafras on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's right.  The mean ol' lefties at the SPLC were just trying to silence them.

La Raza, too, now?  Oh, good.  We've got some Dobbsian crazy coming.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chicano-bashing is not racism, apparently.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 03:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course not.  It's only racism when the brown people do it in these people's minds.

Next he'll get on the "La Raza's name means The Race, and that means they're racists" nonsense.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How long before they mention the reconquista?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They already have.  C'mon, man.  Reconquista was a given once you knew it was FAIR-derivative. :)

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'progressives' have no substantive argument against restricting immigration during a period of very high unemployment. Are you worried that unbiased readers here might have noticed that fact?

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You make no substantive argument for it that I can see. It's argument by assertion, as usual with you.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You keep throwing certain words out -- "pro-labor" chief among them -- in this very awkward way, like you've been told to say those words over and over again.  It's like reading these goofy Republicans yap about the "Democrat Party" (whatever that is) on television.

Awkward, like you don't even believe it, but that it pays the bills.

I's jess sayin'.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:39:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
dangerously left populist and naturally popular
Is that what you think you are?

Well, you're probably right. These things sound even better if you say them wearing a brown shirt.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think you needed to say that.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right, but it felt great.

In addition, the fellows at pffugee camp said it even more explicitly

But of course, the nazi mentality prefers to make scapegoats out of the powerless...

Yes, Failreft, I anticipated your hard right turn. Not that that was hard to see developing. Go for it. I wont make fun of you. Just disappear this bogus blognality and show up as someone else on the other side. This is exactly what happend on the "left" in 1920s-30s Germany. You think those millions of Nazi supporters just came out of nowhere?



En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm gonna defend Mig on this one.  If someone is going to diary right wing propaganda and use supremacist front groups as a source -- not to mention accusing the SPLC as engaging in a SMEAR campaign -- then mentioning brown shirts is not out of line.  Supremacist groups and rhetoric need to be met with strong disapproval, not merely a polite difference of opinion.  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To be fair, if five total minutes of googling turns up links to all of these groups, you can rest assured they're tied to neo-Nazi groups, almost undoubtedly directly and undoubtedly indirectly.

I'm sure the militias are in there somewhere, too, this being a Michigan-tied group.

It's a lot the same people making up these groups.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:30:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, y'all get on with flaming (fairleft does it too).

We can walk through afterwards and count the troll ratings.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 04:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I understand your desire for civil discourse in the case of good-faith disagreements, I don't get how you interpret a strong response to racist postings as 'flaming.'  Fairleft is the only one downrating anyone in this thread, which, frankly, doesn't bother me.  I'd be ashamed to stay silent or polite on this issue.  Flamewars can be destructive when engaged in over issues, but when it comes to racism on ET, then it seems to me counting the troll-ratings after is not a bad thing.  Should the community politely ignore it?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No call to be silent, or even polite, but it's perfectly possible to counter fairleft's nonsense with facts and arguments without needing to get into "brown shirt" territory. As for "flaming", I'm being anticipatory. Perhaps wrongly.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 at 05:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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