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Of course, some people, e.g. Krugman think that the Chinese position gives them less power over the US than commonly thought:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/israel-china-america/

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 at 03:29:29 PM EST
To paraphrase Drew, Krugman here is arguing that "China can't force the hand of the US because MARS, BITCHES!".

The brainless should not be in banking -- Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 at 03:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know...

  1. As you have observed, the way the market works is that you can't just liquidate large holdings at the going price... so likewise it seems that China has some things to lose by liquidating it's dollar holdings...

  2. Once you move away from a dollar crash... what harm in a bit of a dollar decline?

  3. Or is the Chinese threat... hand over the technology or we keep the dollar high? That's bad for the US economy as a whole perhaps, but the elites are quite happy being "reserve currency"?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 at 04:22:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. That's the tail, not the dog. The dog is the exchange rate. Right now, the US is selling China their industrial base. If and when China decides that the US has no more worthwhile industrial base to sell (or that the US isn't going to sell it anymore), China's interest in the US shifts from being an export market to being a raw materials provider. And then the only thing that stops China from treating the US the same way the Washington Consensus has been treating various other third-world countries is the fact that giving the US the WC treatment would cause economic collapse and political turmoil in the world's largest nuclear arsenal.

  2. There's no harm in a dollar decline, provided that it is accompanied by a well-thought-out industrial policy with an emphasis on import substitution. However, industrial policy and import substitution are non-trivial exercises at the best of times, so you really want to do them on your own timetable. The US can only do it on their own timetable if they initiate the process by devaluing the dollar on their timetable rather than waiting around for China to decide that it's no longer in their interest to prop it up.

  3. China cannot keep the dollar high in the face of a determined attempt to devalue it. China can only keep the dollar high relative to their own currency. But if the US devalues on their own timetable, then China will end up devaluing relative to the € and Yen on somebody else's timetable. And that's not necessarily desirable.

In short, currency policy is highly path-dependent. The same exchange rate, arrived at by two different paths, can have radically different outcomes.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 at 05:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The "power over the US" that the Chinese position gives them is the power to substantially drop US exchange rates on average against the other floating currencies.

If a US policy maker's goal is for the Chinese to do that devaluation for you, so that the US policy maker does not have to accept The Village and US headquartered transnational Corporate ire at the "weaker dollar" policy, but can blame it on the Chinese action ...

... then the threat that the Chinese will do precisely what you want them to do if you don't stop yapping would not have much force.

Mugger: "Give me all your money, or else I'll go away and tell all my mates not to bother wif you".


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Mar 15th, 2010 at 03:15:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But there are ways to devalue and then there are ways to devalue.

Specifically, devaluing your currency has two consequences:

  1. It makes it more expensive for you to import other people's stuff. This makes industries that rely on imports for a large fraction of their retail value less competitive (because the imported parts become more expensive faster than the added value becomes cheaper for foreigners).

  2. It makes it less expensive for other people to import your stuff. This makes industries that rely on domestically added value for a large fraction of their retail price more competitive (because the added value becomes cheaper for foreigners faster than the imported parts become more expensive).

The problem is that if you devalue on somebody else's timetable, there is no guarantee that you will be able to create new industry of the second kind faster than the industry of the first kind goes belly-up. Whereas if you devalue on your own timetable, you can match the pace of the devaluation to the tools and benchmarks of your industrial policy.

Now, granted, this problem goes away if you impose profit controls (recall Adam Smith's not-so-famous dictum that profit is more harmful to competitiveness than wages because wages grow only linearly with value added while working capital grows exponentially with value added). But if you have sufficient political clout to impose profit controls, then you also have sufficient political clout to devalue on your own timetable.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 15th, 2010 at 03:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In (1), less competitive where against whom?

If less competitive domestically against producers that are not reliant on inputs to the same extent ... that's assuming the existence of competing identically those other producers, and may be turbulence but not a long term problem.

If less competitive against overseas producers ... they are dealing in the overseas currency in which the imports are priced and the cost of the imports in terms of that overseas currency has not change. And assuming any domestic content at all, the cost inflation in exporter currency terms is cost deflation in importer currency terms.

There certainly will be J-curve effects.

If the fix-price component of imports are primarily contracted in foreign currency and the fix-price component of exports are primarily contracted in domestic currency, that gives a J-curve effect which requires stability at the new exchange rate to settle out.

And of course, if the volume of flex-price imports is greater than the volume of flex-price exports, there is a J-curve effect as flex-price products shift on a foreign-exchange-rate driven timetable while fix-price products shift on a price-setting (menu or contract) timetable.

I do not know how much of fix-price product imports is denominated in US$ - likely a large share, but I don't know how dominant - but clearly there is an appreciable flex-price component in the US import bill in imports of about 200b US gallons of petroleum products, so certainly the second source of J-curve effects will be important.

If US policymakers had given up on the US policy setting process as a means of pursuing a desirable change in the exchange rate regime, that larger J-curve costs in having the shift take place by pressing another country to push the change through would be one of the costs of having a thoroughly corrupted political system incapable of pursuing high priority national needs.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Mar 16th, 2010 at 02:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If less competitive domestically against producers that are not reliant on inputs to the same extent ... that's assuming the existence of competing identically those other producers, and may be turbulence but not a long term problem.

But in the long term, we're all dead.

Specifically, if all your industry relies heavily on imports, and you have a current accounts deficit, devaluing means that you'll temporarily increase your current accounts deficit during the transition. If the reason you devalue is that the guy who used to bankroll your current accounts deficit decided to stop doing that... it's not hard to see how that could get a lot worse before it got better.

And God help y'all if you go to the international institutions that were supposedly put in place to help bridge such a transition. While there would be a certain delicious irony to hoisting the US on their own IMF petard, it would be badly blemished by the resulting economic catastrophe.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 16th, 2010 at 04:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Its in the long run that we are all dead ... the long run is supposed to be a system at rest, and a living system is only entirely at rest when it is dead.

Going to the international institutions, it turns out that it makes a big difference how many votes you have AT the institution.

devaluing means that you'll temporarily increase your current accounts deficit during the transition

Automatically, in the neoclassical model. Whether or not it works that way in the real world depends on in which currency the purchase contracts for the imports are denominated.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Mar 16th, 2010 at 05:15:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Its in the long run that we are all dead ... the long run is supposed to be a system at rest, and a living system is only entirely at rest when it is dead.

How many other economists share that insight?

The brainless should not be in banking -- Willem Buiter

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 16th, 2010 at 05:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Likely only General Systems economists read and understand Georgescu-Roegan with the background to have got it from him, Paul Davidson brushes against it with his distinction between ergodic and non-ergodic systems, and of course Veblen says it but in an entirely different lexicon in "Why is Economics Not an Evolutionary Science".

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Mar 16th, 2010 at 06:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Shouldn't this be a common problem for all those thrift in saving or investing? Certainly in the current economic regime, accumulating capital leaves less money to the others. Quantity of money is defined by credit volumes rather than exchange needs, right?

The theory says that capital holders (and accumulators) are rewarded for expending restraint. But is that restraint a good thing for the society if everyone else is called to consume more? What else would capital holders do if their "restraint" service were valued less?

by das monde on Mon Mar 15th, 2010 at 05:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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