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for a truly excellent discussion, which has addressed many of the nagging concerns about my (lack of) understanding of wind power and its effects on existing investments, new investments, returns on investments, and long term electricity price trends.

Some questions:

  1. Can wind turbines have remotely/automatically controlled variable pitch to respond to changes in demand and/or wind speed and thus assist in regional supply regulation and reduce drastic shut downs.

  2. To what extent will "smart grids" be able to assist in demand regulation - e.g. by charging electric cars at night but also targeted at times when maximum wind is available

  3. To what extent can power storage plants like Turlough Hill assist in supply regulation - and what is their effect on average costs - is their an optimum penetration of storage plants

  4. Are there any examples of paying for capacity rather than output as a means of ensuring there is sufficient investment in new peaker capacity.  Would doing so not be analogous to guaranteeing feed in tariffs for wind?

  5. If the major losers from increasing wind penetration are the owners/operators of existing plant, are there any examples of mechanisms for compensating them for loss of production - e.g. through some payment for capacity scheme?  Clearer the operator of a plant that is only required 5% of the time would need either very high marginal prices or some sort of "state guarantee" in return for providing security of supply.

  6. What is the effect of "internationalising/widening the grid"  on wind variability - i.e. the larger the geographic area, the greater the likelihood of at least some wind in parts of the grid.

  7. What is the impact of rising transmission costs if power for parts of a widening grid is sourced from increasing remote sources - e.g. wind/wave from Ireland, Solar from the Sahara.  Ireland is investing a lot of money in inter-connectors to the UK (and, I think, France) as a means of widening its grid.

  8.  Conversely, what are the transmission cost savings from (sometimes) being able to favour areas of supply deficit with local wind production (rather than remote nuclear or some other v. centralised resource).  I'm thinking of low population density areas or other areas remote from major power plants but whose needs could largely/often be met by local wind/wave/solar.

  9. Surely there are computer models available for optimising not just the supply mix, but the cost mix, which could assist in estimating the impact of introducing more wind on the overall system and returns for all stakeholders.  

This should be a scientific rather than an ideological debate - and the impact of regulatory policies (or market deregulation) on costs, prices, carbon footprints, employment, imports/exports, tax take, returns on investment, security of supply etc. should all be calculable. Or am I being naive here and is there a value (to some) of obfuscation?

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 26th, 2010 at 08:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are being naive.
by rootless2 on Mon Apr 26th, 2010 at 08:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Can wind turbines have remotely/automatically controlled variable pitch to respond to changes in demand and/or wind speed and thus assist in regional supply regulation and reduce drastic shut downs.

Yes, they mostly do these days.


To what extent will "smart grids" be able to assist in demand regulation - e.g. by charging electric cars at night but also targeted at times when maximum wind is available

The potential is massive; it remains to be seen how it can be implemented. This is largely a regulatory question more than a technical one.


To what extent can power storage plants like Turlough Hill assist in supply regulation - and what is their effect on average costs - is their an optimum penetration of storage plants

Storage plants help. They are limited by topography, unfortunately.


Are there any examples of paying for capacity rather than output as a means of ensuring there is sufficient investment in new peaker capacity.  Would doing so not be analogous to guaranteeing feed in tariffs for wind?

yes, some US markets have explicit capacity markets. Others do it through the spot markets through "balancing costs" ie penalties for producers who under or over deliver and special payments for producers that make "spinning reserves" (ie immediately available spare capacity) available


If the major losers from increasing wind penetration are the owners/operators of existing plant, are there any examples of mechanisms for compensating them for loss of production - e.g. through some payment for capacity scheme?  Clearer the operator of a plant that is only required 5% of the time would need either very high marginal prices or some sort of "state guarantee" in return for providing security of supply.

Peakers can generate a profit producing electricity only a few % of the year; as to incumbents, they are the ones pushing for market pricing these days, but yes, at some point, some regulatory changes will be needed, either in the form of minimum prices or some other mechanisms.


What is the effect of "internationalising/widening the grid"  on wind variability - i.e. the larger the geographic area, the greater the likelihood of at least some wind in parts of the grid.

Yes, the wider the grid area, the more stable it can be and the more intermittency can be absorbed.


What is the impact of rising transmission costs if power for parts of a widening grid is sourced from increasing remote sources - e.g. wind/wave from Ireland, Solar from the Sahara.  Ireland is investing a lot of money in inter-connectors to the UK (and, I think, France) as a means of widening its grid.

Conversely, what are the transmission cost savings from (sometimes) being able to favour areas of supply deficit with local wind production (rather than remote nuclear or some other v. centralised resource).  I'm thinking of low population density areas or other areas remote from major power plants but whose needs could largely/often be met by local wind/wave/solar.
Surely there are computer models available for optimising not just the supply mix, but the cost mix, which could assist in estimating the impact of introducing more wind on the overall system and returns for all stakeholders.  

Well, transmission costs can be balanced by the lower prices of electricity from having a wider market.

 

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 26th, 2010 at 11:07:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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