Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.
Display:
"Not for the first time in its history the German people have been irresponsibly misled by a political leadership that seems to have lost any sense of history, any sense of order and stability in Europe, and any sense of Germany's key contributing role to the current crisis."

WW2-associations are usually taboo in the European debate, especially when Germany is involved, which means some people are really fucking angry with Berlin. And that's not strange. What the fuck are they up to? It seems they are acting completely irrationaly excactly due to WW2-mind-trauma (inflation-> invade Poland).

In the words of Krugman:

German hawk: "We must cut deficits immediately, because we have to deal with the fiscal burden of an aging population."

Ugly American: "But that doesn't make sense. Even if you manage to save 80 billion euros -- which you won't, because the budget cuts will hurt your economy and reduce revenues -- the interest payments on that much debt would be less than a tenth of a percent of your G.D.P. So the austerity you're pursuing will threaten economic recovery while doing next to nothing to improve your long-run budget position."

German hawk: "I won't try to argue the arithmetic. You have to take into account the market reaction."

Ugly American: "But how do you know how the market will react? And anyway, why should the market be moved by policies that have almost no impact on the long-run fiscal position?"

German hawk: "You just don't understand our situation."



Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 04:01:17 PM EST
That's just Krugman being a pawn for the anti-Europeans.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 04:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some guy at Zero Hedge has an idea about how to resolve the issue, and by god, it's far less retarded than most of the ideas thrown around by Serious People.

What we really need is an ultra high stakes World Cup football match between Spain and Germany.

The bet would go something like this-- if the Spaniards win, Germany funds the full 800 billion euro bailout package.

If Germany wins?  They own Spain.  And will get the option of shipping the 20% or so unemployed to Montana.  Don't worry, Barry O will put them on a new brand of hopey/changey socialism.

And if there's a tie?  They'll be no tie!  Why do they even let these teams do that, anyway?

And in other news, I'm considering changing my signature line below which I've had since 2006 to "Rights issue!!!!!!!!!111111"

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 04:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How much of the crisis is the result of people that partied and spent money they didn't have lecturing those that did not party and the latter resenting such lecturing and telling them - you had your fun, now pay?

Even if it is not if Germany's self interest to push for austerity, it's seen as less unfair than the alternative.

Or do we suddenly all believe that people act only in their best interests, as determined rationally?

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 05:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
How much of the crisis is the result of people that partied and spent money they didn't have lecturing those that did not party and the latter resenting such lecturing and telling them - you had your fun, now pay?
Who's

  • the people that partied
  • the people that did not party

?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 05:34:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it should be:
  • "people thought to have partied"
  • "people who think they didn't party"
(in each case the "thinking" being done by the supposedly virtuous party.

But basically, it would be people who took on debt and people who didn't take on debt.

There's been an interesting trend to present the economy as a morality play, as per this diary: Tired of Slutty Unemployed Women and Their Divorces


The current economic crisis for American households has taken on a new aspect.  It's being spun by the GOP and their media parasites not as an economic problem, but as a social problem.  A problem of morals.  A problem of values.

It's not the consequence of thirty years of sh!tty conservative economic policy.

Of course not!

It's about a failure of Americans to live within the standards set for them by the preachers, pontiffs and pundits in the right-wing.

American families -- previously considered victims of the economic crisis -- are now the cause of it.

Don't blame Wall St.!

Blame the unemployed.

They are unemployed because they are drug addicts.

People losing their homes are to blame because they were greedy.

People have lost their jobs because they are lazy.

Or because they failed to train for the jobs of the future.  (Tee-hee!)

Shouldn't they suffer the consequences of their misdeeds?

The GOP hopes to get a three-fer win out of the current economic crisis.

First, they want to stall government aid, crash the system again and reap electoral benefits in November.

Second, they want to use it to solidify gains made by their cronies in New York and Washington over the last thirty years of wealth confiscation.

And, third, they want to use it to prove once and for all that there is an economic cost to the working household when the public is allowed to commit values crimes -- you know, the usual divorce, abortion and same-sex marijuana.

And the media is all too happy to comply.



Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 08:09:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
There's been an interesting trend to present the economy as a morality play

That's hardly a trend - it's the foundation of all neoclassical posturing.

Rich people are inherently good. They can do no wrong and must be rewarded for 'their' success, without limit.

Poor people are inherently bad, and must be punished for 'their' failure.

There's some stuff about prices and trading and such, but that's just wrapping paper.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 08:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Economics is the religious jargon of the day. 500 years ago people used phony biblical exegesis to justify rewarding the wealthy and punishing the poor.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 08:52:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, quite. We have Saint Smith of the Invisible Hand, and Saint Friedman who rescued us from the temptations of the Satanic Demon Keynes.

Etc.

No wonder it makes no sense at all.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 09:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, we really need to (virtually) sit down and unpick this one rationally, as best we can. There's a pretty complex interplay of cultural clash, stored resentment, nationalism, free-market bullshit and propaganda all mixed up with self-interest and moral justifications in play in the public sphere here, to the extent that normally pretty rational posters on this site (you and Mig for example) are taking it personally, which is fascinating. It's pretty hard to work out what's really going on and why.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 05:39:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
rational posters on this site (you and Mig for example) are taking it personally, which is fascinating
Maybe I should start charging you for the entertainment...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 05:57:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 08:02:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display: