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santiago:
I'm not sure that basing the credit in energy or land adds anything, however.

As an advocate of the taxation of privileged use of the commons of Location (a tax on land rental values) and of the privileged use of non-renewable resources (eg a carbon levy) then in fact the credit would be based (via the State as intermediary) upon these sources of value. The taxation of unearned income from rents, means that taxation of earned income may be commensurately lower.

The credit necessary for the circulation of goods and services is - in my analysis - based in large part upon 'Knowledge' (subjective knowledge is a component of 'Labour' while objective knowledge may be 'intellectual property').

The mechanism I advocate is the 'Guarantee Society'  which is simply a mutual guarantee agreement of bilateral credit, backed if necessary by provisions made into a default 'pool'.

No deposits are in fact necessary for such credit - the Swiss WIR credit clearing/ barter system demonstrates that empirically, as will an upcoming system in South America, where invoices will be used to settle other invoices with the central bank as intermediary.

In fact, disintermediating banks - and migrating them to service provision - would only be a transitional step on the way to a genuine peer to peer financing architecture, which will disintermediate the State as well - or maybe create a participative State.


"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 05:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what do you need to start such a system going? Modern banking, for example, arguably didn't really need the state to enact any new policies to get going. In fact, it's private development helped the modern state to come into existence.  

I actually happen to have a medium sized farm in what may be the same South American country you're talking about, but regardless, if I wanted to develop that farm, how, specifically and mechanically, could I opt today to use the methods of funding investments that you propose, or do I have to wait for the state to create supportive conditions first?  

by santiago on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 06:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no need to wait for the State, although participation by a local municipality would undoubtedly kick-start things.

Obviously you couldn't do it on your own, but you could provide liquidity in a new system based upon your production, and the use value of your land and buildings etc.

You could develop the farm by entering into revenue-sharing and/or production-sharing 'capital partnership' agreements with suitable partners. eg your current employees become a co-operative with an 'equity share' in production.

Secondly you could participate in - and promote the development of - a local Guarantee Society.

The components of this are:

(a) willing participants;

(b) a Value Standard - probably the dollar for as long as people trust it. NB - no dollars change hands: what happens is that money's worth, eg of your fruit, changes hands on credit terms priced  by reference to the dollar;

(c) an accounting system - pretty trivial;

(d) a service-provider-formerly-known-as-a-bank;

(e) an agreement.

A unit of currency would be useful. Here you might find that renewable energy projects on your land eg biomass; hydro could be a source.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 06:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, sounds good so far.  But one of your theses has been that this way of doing things will overtake and supplant the current way of doing things through capitalists and banks -- that markets for capital themselves will dictate the exit of banks and their replacement by this new arrangement. If true, that's great, but we need a path to get from here to there without depending on the state to do it (anther of your theses).  So, why and how would I, as a farmer in a country where alternative arrangements are viewed positively right now in official discourse, get involved with another group offering a form a financing my investment instead of just going to traditional money lenders?

More questions:

Why would I have to set up a cooperative with my workers?  Is that really necessary to get this going, or just a progressive hand out to them?  (And one they are likely to be wary of, given the security of being paid weekly in dollars instead of the risky alternative of being a shareholder.)

Willing participants:  This would seem to require an organizer, aka a salesperson, to convince them to be willing. Are you taking into account how to compensate this particular effort and skill set?

Service provide formerly known as banks:  What exactly would be the service they would be providing in this arrangement, and how much do you expect they would have to be compensated?

Is the whole system really less expensive/more beneficial to me than just going to traditional money lending sources? Where do you identify the savings/benefits and how can we quantify them to compare them to traditional means that entrepreneurs have to finance their investments?

by santiago on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
So, why and how would I, as a farmer in a country where alternative arrangements are viewed positively right now in official discourse, get involved with another group offering a form a financing my investment instead of just going to traditional money lenders?

You currently borrow money - if you can - at interest in order to buy goods and services you need.

In the 'guarantee society' model your suppliers provide the goods and services on interest-free credit terms, and you give them your IOU based upon your capacity to provide 'money's worth' at some point in the future.

The result is that there are open 'bilateral' credit balances between you and your suppliers which are supported by the 'guarantee society' agreement.

Both you, and they, pay an amount into a 'default fund' in common ownership (a custodian) for as long as you have a positive or negative balance. This is a payment for the use of the collective guarantee.

Participants also pay a service charge to a service-provider-formerly-known-as-a-bank who administers the system; sets guarantee limits for sellers and buyers; manages defaults.

Essentially the outcome is an open-ended overdraft at the option of the finance user. Defaults can only be in respect of exceeding the credit/guarantee limit although it would be possible to mandate - in addition to the guarantee charge and service charge - a minimum payment.

Those with debit balances may settle balances bilaterally by providing money or money's worth to suppliers.

Those with credit balances have an incentive to spend, since they pay for the use of the guarantee as well.

This is of course the same Gesellian approach proposed by Keynes for positive AND negative Bancor balances in his Bancor/ International Clearing Union, except that there was a central issuer of 'fiat' Bancors.

Alternatively, your suppliers may in turn obtain goods and services elsewhere - thereby creating their own debit balances - and it is possible then for settlement 'chains' to take place eg A pays B pays C pays D pays A - which are identified by 'clearing agent' software like Ripple Pay.

This sort of settlement chain is precisely what happens now in Brent/BFOE forward crude oil contracts upon expiry when 'open' bilateral forward contracts are often netted out in this way. So called Brent Daisy Chains have been known to reach 100 links.

Such a guarantee society system could be started tomorrow.

Why would I have to set up a cooperative with my workers?  Is that really necessary to get this going, or just a progressive hand out to them?

At the moment your managers and staff are costs: I am not sure what incentives they have beyond a salary.

I don't see it as a 'hand out' if you both cut your overheads and give them the incentive of an equity share in the production. In a  bad year you share the pain, but conversely you don't get to keep all the fruits of a good year.

But my experience is that true 'co-ownership' will appeal to your staff as much as it does to (say) the John Lewis Partnership staff in the UK. I suspect the productivity will greatly increase if everyone feels they have genuine stake.

given the security of being paid weekly in dollars instead of the risky alternative of being a shareholder

It's not a matter of 'either/or'. Some (eg youngsters with no family) may opt to have a pure equity share: others may require a guaranteed minimum - which would come at the expense of part of their equity share.

It's entirely up to them and you to what extent they would opt in.

What exactly would be the service they would be providing in this arrangement, and how much do you expect they would have to be compensated?

See above. They would get agreed (on an 'open book' basis) costs covered, and would then receive a profit/surplus element paid from the bonus/ pool and based upon default experience.

Where do you identify the savings/benefits and how can we quantify them to compare them to traditional means that entrepreneurs have to finance their investments?

Firstly, there is no compound interest in the model.

Second, no deposits etc are required, and banking regulation (and all the crap that goes with it) does not come into it.

Third, the interests of the service provider are aligned with those of the service user, but it is not easy to quantify the benefit. Probably excessive management costs and empire building will be less likely.

Let's say a 1% charge is made per month to positive and negative balances. This would be pooled; then a % share would go to the service provider, and the balance would be distributed as a dividend to guarantee society members as they see fit.

This has the effect of compensating those who use less credit, but who still provide the guarantee.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 04:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. This makes it clearer. I'll do the math and report back here later. In the meantime,
I want to make sure we separate the "touchy feely" stuff from what is actually required to make the system work for an entrepreneur with a practical need for investment resources which he can't provide himself, and it looks to me like the cooperative bit isn't really necessary.

There's nothing inherent that would prevent a slave owning plantation, to be extreme, from also benefiting from a guarantee society relationship for financing investment in the same way that a cooperative farm would, as I see it.  The co-op part seems entirely independent from the guarantee society part, right?

 

by santiago on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 07:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
The co-op part seems entirely independent from the guarantee society part, right?

I advocate partnership frameworks for:

(a) Peer to Peer Credit - the 'Guarantee Society';

(b) Peer to Peer Investment - the 'Capital Partnership'

The latter is essentially a co-operative of owners of capital (investors) sharing revenues or production with a cooperative of users of capital (labour).

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just want to clarify that I could enter into either a guarantee society or a capital partnership without also having to have to change the way I pay my workers, right?
by santiago on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 08:56:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure you could. Both are complementary mechanisms.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 09:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I want to make sure we separate the "touchy feely" stuff from what is actually required to make the system work for an entrepreneur with a practical need for investment resources

Hey man! Like, you need to get in touch with your feelings!  :-)  Cooperatives of users of capital and owners of capital should be safe even for the most rationalist of economists. The peers are all capitalists.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the co-op part I'm wondering about here. I love co-ops. It's the part about giving workers an ownership in stake in the enterprise. Lots of people could have big problems with that because they don't trust their workers and their workers don't trust them. But Chris's plan here doesn't seem to rely on workers at all, just capitalists, so the worker co-op part of it seems completely superfluous in this scheme.
by santiago on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 07:51:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
It's the part about giving workers an ownership in stake in the enterprise. Lots of people could have big problems with that because they don't trust their workers and their workers don't trust them. But Chris's plan here doesn't seem to rely on workers at all, just capitalists, so the worker co-op part of it seems completely superfluous in this scheme.

In fact, one of the most powerful applications is a worker buyout of an enterprise, whether that is an existing private company (where shareholders get a better 'exit' than using any other model, essentially by selling off future profits) or existing state provision, where it is a new and 'non-toxic' approach to public/private partnership.

In this context the City of Glasgow already has five such municipal partnerships (using LLP frameworks) between the council and private providers, but all are conventionally financed. What I am proposing is to bring investment within such partnerships.

The outcome is 'co-ownership' between labour and capital of productive assets, and a genuine alignment of interests.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 09:27:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Employee Stock Ownership Plans, in US parlance.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 09:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but ESOPs only confer shares in the deeply dysfunctional joint Stock Limited Liability 'Corporation' with its embedded 'Principal/Agent' conflict with management.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:13:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I mean is that worker ownership, using a scheme like yours, is a solution to a problem in which workers want to own their employer, for any number of reasons. That's one business problem.

A more common business problem among entrepreneurs who might want to use your scheme is that a business owner just wants investment capital to expand, without changing the owner-employee relationship with his workers.  So I just wanted to clarify that you don't need to change your wage and ownership structure to participate in a guarantee society or an investment society.

by santiago on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:14:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both mechanisms are entirely complementary.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:16:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook: But my experience is that true 'co-ownership' will appeal to your staff as much as it does to (say) the John Lewis Partnership staff in the UK.

i have always taken a great interest in your ideas and would love to see them realized on a large scale (as far as i can understand them). but i am wondering if you have already implemented (or helped others to implement) them in actual enterprises.  if so, could you describe some of them (or point to where you already have done so)?

If you can't pay the bills, it's not sustainable.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've successfully developed a film using the model.

There was a >£1bn embryonic capital partnership years ago involving 10 UK hotels.

A chateau in France is encapsulated within a 'Capital Partnership', but this is a very simple early variant.

There are several works in progress. We have a commitment from a major municipality to put 1.5 acres of waterfront land into a 'Land Partnership' but assembling the rest of it is slow going, since we lack the necessary 'walkabout money'.

One very exciting project - a distressed school currently in provisional liquidation - has bubbled up in the last week. It's got a short fuse, and if it happens it will happen fast.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 03:05:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
santiago:
I'm not sure that basing the credit in energy or land adds anything, however.

As an advocate of the taxation of privileged use of the commons of Location (a tax on land rental values) and of the privileged use of non-renewable resources (eg a carbon levy) then in fact the credit would be based (via the State as intermediary) upon these sources of value. The taxation of unearned income from rents, means that taxation of earned income may be commensurately lower.

Why, yes but is not the credit weaker for it?

I mean if you have a note that is good for paying X euros of taxes in land Y, it is needed for anybody that pays taxes in land Y (which would be just about everybody) while if you have a note that is good for paying X euros of specific taxes (may it be land) in land Y it is only needed by those that pay that specific tax (landowners).

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A swedish kind of death:
It is only needed by those that pay that specific tax (landowners).

'Only'?

In Hong Kong, up to 35% of government income comes from a 'land rental'. This is a land value tax in all but name, and is due to the fact that the British only leased much of Hong Kong from the Chinese, and therefore only offered long 'Crown Leases' rather than the absolute title of freeholds.

Likewise in Denmark, up to 30% of tax - in this case local taxes - were land rental based. This proportion has declined since the privileged classes took power, capped the tax, and let the Danish property boom rip. The Danes were never as badly hit by the property bubble as many other nations, because their rented sector is, I understand, only surpassed as a proportion of overall housing, by Germany.

These examples demonstrate that the potential basis for what is essentially land-based money (ie government credit backed by land taxation)is massive.

Another way of looking at it is that more than two thirds of our existing deficit-based money was created by private banks as interest-bearing mortgage loans and is therefore deficit-based but property-backed.

Only part of this is land backing, of course, and much of it is backed by (depreciating) bricks and mortar etc....


"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:54:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
In Hong Kong, up to 35% of government income comes from a 'land rental'.

So is it not better - for the currency - to be based on 100% of tax value then 35%?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 02:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course.

But it's all relative, since you would be looking at how many year's worth of tax revenues could be monetised.

Such a land-backed State issued currency would principally be domestically acceptable or 'fungible'. Note here that I do not advocate any issue of currency by a State, since I regard State intermediation as just as much obsolete as private intermediation.

I would expect a currency based upon energy - and if an intermediary State is involved, upon a carbon levy/tax - to be another currency acceptable domestically. This would also be fungible beyond a country's borders within a suitable international clearing union.

But there's a difference between a currency - eg money's worth - and the value standard by which currencies are exchanged on credit terms.

Unfortunately the deficit-based currencies we are used to are not based upon tax revenues at all (except bank notes and coin) but are privately manufactured credit objects with very little value behind them at all.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jun 26th, 2010 at 04:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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