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Two countries with "Socialist" governments...

If things develops like this, Twank will be happy.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 04:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Is this it?
It is very uncommon for Spanish authorities to attempt to use force to break strikes. The last instance of this was in 2008, when truckers blocked the roads around Madrid (see the diary Post Peak Iberia by Luis de Sousa).
Interestingly, just this past weekend El Pais published a profile of the Interior Minister which contained the following segment about the truckers' strike:

Rubalcaba privado · ELPAÍS.comRubalcaba, up close and personal - ElPais.com
-¿Hay tensiones ocasionales entre su ideología y su práctica profesional?Are there occasional tensions between your ideology and your professional practice?
-No hay tensiones entre mi ideología y mi práctica profesional. Más aún, no las hay entre mi biografía y mi práctica. ¿Recuerdas la huelga de transportes de junio de 2008?There are no tensions between my ideology and my professional practice. What is more, there are none between my biography and my praxis. Do you remember the transport strike of June 2008?
-Mmm...Mmm...
-Empezó un sábado o un domingo. La cosa se fue calentando y perdíamos el control del país. Aquella huelga del sector del transporte fue, desde el punto de vista del conocimiento, apasionante. El miércoles por la mañana pensé que había que tomar decisiones. Convoqué a mi gente y les dije: "Ahora mismo sacáis los camiones de la carretera de Burgos". "Pero ministro...", me decían. Nada, me los sacáis.It began on a Saturday or Sunday. The thing heated up and we were losing control of the country. That strike of the transport sector was, from the point of view of knowledge, fascinating. On Wednesday morning, I though one must make decisions. I summoned by people and told them: "You're taking the trucks out of the Burgos road". "But Minister...", they said to me. Nothing, get them out.

The "Burgos road" is one of the 6 roads coming out of Madrid, the one directly due North.

-¿Había problemas jurídicos?Were there any legal problems?
-Ninguno. Y aquello lo taponaba todo, imagínate, una ciudad como Madrid en la que, por citar solo una cosa, no entraban los víveres. Había que mandar un mensaje de que aquello no podía ser. Fue una decisión comparable a la de Blanco con los controladores aéreos. Pero si lo hago el lunes en vez del miércoles me habría equivocado. Los tiempos son fundamentales. Bueno, aquel día me sentí raro. Algo colisionaba con mi biografía, algo me rechinaba...None. And that was plugging everything up, imagine it, a city like Madrid in which, just to mention one thing, groceries couldn't come in. There was a need to send out a message that it couldn't be. It was a decision comparable to Blanco's with the air traffic controllers. But if I do it on the Monday instead of the Wednesday I would have made a mistake. Timing is essential. Well, that day I felt weird. Something clashed with my biography, something squeaked...

At the end of 2009 and well into January 2010 there was a covert strike by Spanish air traffic controllers (what is called a zeal strike where strict adherence to procedural or safety minutiae jams up operations). In February this year the Minister of Public Works, José Blanco, introduced a decree making a repeat of the strike harder in the future.

-¿Y qué le rechinaba?And what squeaked?
-Que yo sacara a unos trabajadores cuando hace 35 años yo habría ido allí a gritar a la policía.That I pulled out some workers when 35 years earlier I would have gone there to shout at the police.


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh. And this is NOT the Spanish edition of the Onion?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't tell the New York Times from The Onion half the time...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 05:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yes you can.  The Onion is much better written and more accurate.
by rifek on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NYT rarely uses the phrase "Area man".


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Mon Jul 5th, 2010 at 10:23:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Spanish socialists and their affiliated union, UGT, got a divorce in 1988, because the party had a habit of taking advantage of the union.  

The policies of the 1980s were more about keeping wages down instead of promoting skills development and other things that allowed wages to increase while unit labor costs went down because of increased productivity.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:14:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Meanwhile their monetary policy was to fuel the first real estate bubble in order to expand the monetary mass, with the attendant corruption, transaction-based wealth capture and unskilled employment. At the time, Spain's finance minister said "Spain is the country where one can get rich the fastest" or something to that effect. This was called la cultura del pelotazo.

Only recently Zapatero's economic team dared to phase out the fiscal incentive to take on mortgages (a few thousand euros per year of interest paid on a mortgage for one's primary home is tax-deductible).

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Problem aside, I think that Zapatero and the rest are better than Gonzalez was. One of the things that's shocking to me looking through the income statistics for Spain is that the wage differential between the top and bottom appears to have shrank between 1995 and 2002, only to have opened up again when the Socialist retook power.  Sigh....

Is this a reflection of the international climate? Probably. But I think that the current government has to avoid the siren song of incomes policies that attempt to restore competitiveness through wage cuts.  There was movement towards a more "German" model in which productivity increases were created using skills training, but there's a long way to go. Particularly outside of industry, and outside of select areas, likes the Basque Country.  Did you know that if you look at the areas where this sort of focus on skills training trumped the push towards income policies that the increase in unemployment is less severe than elsewhere?

Spain is trapped between an economic structure that pushes it towards the coordinated market model, and an international politics that demands neo-liberal reforms.  

Pobre Espana, tan lejos de sobernia nacional, y tan cerca Londres.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that Zapatero and the rest are better than Gonzalez was

You may have missed this

A trait of Zapatero's government has been to propose important changes on social issues, following the Social Democratic tradition well established in Europe (and in which Spain was considerably backwards), earning a well-deserved applause on important issues which affect the quality of life of Spanish citizens. Reforms such as the Fourth Pillar of Welfare (with the approval of the Dependency Law, among other measures) have earned national and international recognition. However, this positive side of his tenure has been limited by his economic and fiscal policy, which has diminished the potential of the social measures approved by the government. And this is due to the economic thought that has guided a large part of these economic and fiscal policies, which is well defined in the book by Jordi Sevilla (the most influential economist in the birth of the current known as New Way), entitled New Socialism, with a preface by the then candidate Zapatero. In this book, Sevilla wrote
Can anyone defend in this day and age that a social democratic programme must favour more taxes and spending and introduce normative rigidities into the economy?


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the innovative stuff is coming at the regional level.  There isn't a coordinated effort from Madrid to get this shit together.  It's been a result of local initiatives, which started in the Basque Country and were copied elsewhere.

As for Zapatero.  I think that there's been a sea change in the last three years.  And to be honest, I don't think that Zapatero would have entered office if Aznar wasn't a lying bastard that tried to promote the myth that ETA was behind the Atocha attack.

That said, I still think that he's an improvement over Gonzalez.  Until very recently, really the last few months, there hasn't been talk about incomes policies.  There's been social pacts, but the scope has been much wider.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There isn't a coordinated effort from Madrid to get this shit together.

You think? Madrid is in the hands of a reactionnary who calls herself "liberal". The Left, Green and Socialist parties in Madrid have been in disarray for years.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm....

Excuse me,  I did an Americanism.  From Madrid=From Washington.

What I mean is that the national government isn't really trying to coordinate efforts that are coming from the regions.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:08:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in the context of regional policies and your focus on the Basque Country I did read "Madrid" as being the regional/local governments.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the thing about Spain.  It's sort of schizophrenic, because you have these highly industrialized, nationalist regions.  And then you have Madrid, the Castilles, and Andalucia. There's a historical basis for it, but it's strange the way these are the areas closest to France and the European core.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think about the hihgly industrialised nationalist regions spearheading burqa bans in Spain?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you in favor of burquas in Spain?
Would you support the following 6 point program being adopted by the Spanish legislature and executive branches of government?

  1. Allow Spanish Muslim communities to practice Sharia if that's what works well for them.
  2. Tolerate (or even encourage) Muslim women being forbidden (by their husbands) from driving cars, or practicing certain professions (as they are in Saudi Arabia).
  3. Legalize state support (through social security funding) of Muslim families composed of 4 wives and 12 kids (like Lies Hebbadj in Nantes, France).
  4. Completely open up its southern borders in a sign of cultural tolerance.
  5. Finance 100+ mosques with public funds in 2011.
  6. And... of course, accept bourquas.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the whole burqa ban thing is cheap immigrant-bashing by xenophobic parties.

A town in Spain just passed a burqa-banning ordinance. There appears to be exectly one burqa-wearing woman in the town.

Civil liberties are not advanced by that kind of immigrant-bashing.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:19:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. Now that you had your slippery slippery slope argument, could you please answer me this: how does a burqua ban protect burqua-wearers actually forced by men to wear it from being forbidden leaving home on foot?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Conversely, what if it is legally permitted to wear a burqua, but nobody does because doing so would invite a stoning from the Christians?
by asdf on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 08:25:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point. We have witnessed many Christian stonings of Muslims over the past couple of years. The trend is clearly worrying.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:19:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, if Spain allows women to wear burqas, it's only a matter of time before they ban women from driving.  And before you know it, people are sleeping with their pets.

Or something.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:30:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mmm. Yes. And the Swiss cheese was a bit too salty, of course.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 08:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh noes! The brown barbarians are taking over! He-alp! He-alp!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:59:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 07:18:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that a Spanish dog?
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 08:57:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think about the hihgly industrialised nationalist regions spearheading burqa bans in Spain?

Mig, aren't we talking about a single town here? Plus, is this some local PP official showing off or is it something more.

My original comment was more about economic systems than anything else.  Economic institutions in the Basque Country have been more effective in resisting neoliberalism than elsewhere.  There's been more in the way of move tripartite agreements beyond simple incomes policies into things like the training programs that make German employment more stable.

Merkel and the fixation with austerity aside, there's a lot to be said for the way that the German model integrates labor into the process.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 05:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mig, aren't we talking about a single town here?

No, actually, we're talking about a number of towns in a process spearheaded by Catalan nationalists.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:22:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I honestly didn't know that.  Is this CiU or ERC spearheading the effort.

The left/right divide is a lot more serious in the Catalan parties than they Basques, because the PNV has sucked up much of the space for nationalist politics there. There's not a lot left (at least legally) for left nationalist parties, although Aralar has been hanging on.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is not actually mainstream nationalists. But now everyone is jumping on the bandwagon, from public schools in Pozuelo near Madrid to small towns in Andalusia to the right-wing (including nationalist) Spanish Senate majority passing non-binding resolutions.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:54:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've said it before, but I'll beat a dead horse (me).

The problem with capitalism isn't exploitation, it's commodification. An ideology of economic growth starts to be questioned when that dissappears, and the truth of how much people and nature alike have been reduced to objects of exchange becomes clear.

They will seek to break free from that cage of being commodified, of being objects, and give their lives meaning.  That can come through a rediscovery of society in social democracy.  Or it can take the form of fascism.  The difference.  Is that the former supposes that all are equal, while the latter makes some hands to feed the head, and others simply alien to the body.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 07:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, just read up some on this.

Wow.  

That said.  I think it's a bad law, but I'm not one to suggest that the community shouldn't be able to create community standards.  

If you reject that, you can't be a socialist. If your response to community standards is to shout out that this is the right of the individual, then your aren't a socialist.  

You're an anarchist.  And good luck on getting an organization for effective change together with that.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose first and foremost I am a civil libertarian, even if "social liberals" tend to be too much to the economic right for my taste.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 06:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I was a bit snappy there.

I guess I am just disappointed that discussions on the Left turn to these issues.  

For all the rejection of neoliberalism that you get out of many people, I think that there's a serious problem in that many of these same activists have a problem with there being such a thing as society unless they are in charge.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 07:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ManfromMiddletown:
disappointed that discussions on the Left turn to these issues
Letfies are people too...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 04:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for Zapatero.  I think that there's been a sea change in the last three years.

To me Zapatero appears shell-shocked since the Global Clusterfuck hit spain in force two years ago...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He always did sort of look like that clown from some Steven King movie. I suspect that the shell-shock set in about 13th of March 2004......

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 07:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the vein of Hernando de Soto Polar, actually.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 06:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
embrace your inner adrenalin junkie... pretend it's a cartoon.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 09:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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