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Any policy that redistributes from the middle class to both the wealthy and the poor is regressive - if you generalize it to the whole of society, you achieve a society where the middle class has become poor, the poor have become slightly less poor, and the wealthy make out like bandits.

It matters really what the data says about the true distribution and upon whom the burden is really falling and the benefits accruing.   (A Gini curve can still get flatter by taking from the upper part of the middle, depending on the original shape of the curve, for example.) Spain has notoriously high unemployment, which means that it is entirely possible that transferring wealth from employed upper-middle class government workers to unemployed people is still progressive, even if the rich (high skilled non-government workers and owners) aren't asked to help in that transfer.  It all depends on the numbers and levels of rich, upper middle, lower middle, and unemployed are.

by santiago on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 09:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not really, no - not when the rich have been responsible for most of the wealth capture.

Put simply, you don't create a reasonable middle class income for the poor by impoverishing the middle classes - you do it by taxing and regulating the rich, because they own the bulk of the wealth.

While I'm sure some rich conservatives enjoy the divide-and-rule prospect of trying to set the poor, the unemployed and the middle classes fighting each other for scraps like crabs in a bucket, the point of progressive policy is to ensure that social investment is substantial and significant.

Scraps from the table aren't an acceptable substitute for that.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 29th, 2010 at 09:50:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's the question:  In the case of Spain, are the rich really responsible for most of the wealth capture, and who are the rich?  In countries with large public sectors, it is quite possible that the "rich" are part of the public sector and that there just isn't a lot of extra revenue to be found by going after the relatively small numbers of industrial or financial capitalists who are richer still.  Just because taxing capitalists might be the best way to raise funds in the more inequitable Anglo countries, doesn't mean that's the case everywhere else in Europe.
by santiago on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:59:46 AM EST
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There's not a lot of data easily linked to (I don't have university access) but this paper:

http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=3136587&orden=0

suggests that Spain's top 1% have a similar order of the national wealth (20%) to those in Anglo countries.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 06:19:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Slashing wages by a percentage in public sector looks anyway like a very crude way of addressing a situation if your goal is to have a large share of the burden to fall on the rich.

Better general ways would be:

  • higher taxes on high incomes
  • higher taxes on expensive property

Better specific ways (if public sector is indeed having a lot of fat cats) would be:
  • capping wages in public sector
  • slashing wages among the top 10% of public earners


A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 07:13:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would apply the following levies:

(a) location benefit levy - a tax on land rental values which is essentially a tax on the privileged use of the land commons;

(b) a levy on gross revenues from intellectual property rights - ie a tax on privileged use of the 'creative commons' of knowledge;

(c) a limited liability levy on gross corporate revenues - limited liability is another untaxed privilege;

(d) levies on use of non-renewables - another commons - and so on.

Then I would get rid of all other taxes except levies on earned income aimed at funding education and healthcare.

There is no chance of doing this via the State, since it the privileged turkeys who manage and own the country would not enact Christmas.

But I think in the emerging networked society and economy such an architecture could well evolve.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 08:09:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(b) would mean that a company would have to keep very careful track of exactly who lived where when they were included on a patent application, because it would affect where the payment ended up. Which they already do, but under this system, cheating would be incentivized.
by asdf on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 02:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain has notoriously high unemployment, which means that it is entirely possible that transferring wealth from employed upper-middle class government workers to unemployed people is still progressive, even if the rich (high skilled non-government workers and owners) aren't asked to help in that transfer.

You are postulating that it can help the poor and lower middle class for the poor and lower middle class to gang up with the wealthy and soak the upper middle class, as opposed to the poor and middle class ganging up to soak the rich (and yes, the two are mutually exclusive - coalitions don't form and disband overnight).

I'd like to see a historical example or two of the former ever actually working to improve income and income security for the poor.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The people who own most of the wealth have a much larger proportion of the wealth than they do of the income, and they have ways of having much of wealth accumulation not show up as income either.

So splitting hairs over income taxes is, indeed, regressive. Income is not where the real inequality in economic power lies.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 04:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Historical example: Germany, starting with Bismark.  

Actually, most of European politics can be summarized as a political arrangement between the owner class and the working class and poor to tax the upper middle class bourgeoisie in order to fund large welfare states.  (See Jonas Pontusson, Equality and Prosperity: Social Europe vs. Liberal America)

by santiago on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Duplicate comment deleted.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:45:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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