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Lynch:
Source of the information is sufficiently credible to be referred to as being rock solid.

I don't think we've ever heard that one before!

So you don't have a source for these numbers. That's cool, we'll just ignore them.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not the issue. This issue is that if property taxes are relatively low in Spain, as I think they might be, both relative to the US (where property taxes are among the highest due to the rather extreme form of federalization and multiple local governments practiced there) and to other European countries, then implementing a property tax increase is likely to be a very effective way of reducing Spain's deficit and making the wealthier pay for it, instead of service cuts or public sector wage cuts. But if property taxes are already high, as they are in many parts of the US, there won't be a lot of extra tax revenue to be gained that way.
by santiago on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's an issue well put. Otherwise, my reaction is to anecdotal evidence. We'd need a full survey of property taxes, which would probably turn out to be a complicated task -- given that these are often locally and not so much nationally determined, and that they often form a relatively ancient stratum in tax systems. No doubt because they have not, for a long time, been considered as of great significance.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 03:25:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know because that's how much I'm paying.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You own two $1M properties?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 12:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's because I don't spend all my time blogging...
Actually, banks own a good chunk of both. It's all about leverage. Given your writing, you should know that.
by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 01:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyway, thanks for the data point that France has less progressive taxation than New York State...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 02:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, the French fiscal system is incomparably more progressive.

Property taxes in the US don't go to the federal government - they go to municipal government. The lion's share of this income is used by town halls to finance local public education. This means that the rich, living in wealthy neighbourhoods, can finance excellent educations for their children while those in poor areas get third rate educations... preventing social mobility.

In France, local taxes are used to finance infrastructure and services which aren't deemed essential for preserving a social model which (for the time being) still benchmarks itself on the "equality of chances" criteria. These services include libraries, swimming pools, local roads, etc. while education is financed from the state budget.

by Lynch on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 03:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Many, if not all, states have had to "equalize" funding for education so that all areas get a basic amount. I believe this was the result of court rulings arising out of desegregation efforts dating back to Brown vs. Board of Education, but the school funding issue came to the fore in the '70s. In California local communities can tax themselves additionally for improvement districts or find other ways of providing additional support for local school districts.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's worth noting is that Scarsdale is a choice residential location for well off NY professionals who are apparently more than keen to pay high local taxes in order to have the privilege of living in a community with excellent public services. The inconsistency between this "collectivist preference" and the rhetoric (promoted by these same people) that government, taxes and anything remotely socialist should be done away with is truly incongruous.
Looks like I'm now blogging all the time...
by Lynch on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 03:39:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You should soon not be able to afford your homes any longer...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 04:12:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. The Arc of the Career : reaches apogee, starts blogging, accelerates downward, smites Earth. (With notable exceptions.)

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 09:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The father a captain, the son a general, the grandson a blogger...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 09:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a story of social hazard induced by the catharsis of blogging...
by Lynch on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 10:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another problem in France - and a very well known necessary fiscal reform, although politicians are much less eager to apply it - is that the property values for property tax purposes haven't been reevaluated in a very long time ; about half a century. So that the (at the time) run-down parts of the centers of cities are considered much lower value than the (at the time) brand new, with-all-commodities projects in the suburbs !

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to gainsay most of what you say there, but municipalities in France do finance kindergarten and primary schools. Though the State pays the teachers' salaries, the local budget funds the rest, including assistants' salaries.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 03:29:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in the US there are the Federal education programs such as Title 1, etc. etc., intended to mitigate the expense of federally mandated changes. They do pay the salaries of administrators charged with tracking compliance. The poorer the area, the more such programs. And there is the Federal School Lunch Program - part nutritional assistance for those who qualify, part agricultural subsidy. It is so significant that it has been expanded in an ad hoc manner to weekends and summers. In Arkansas in many districts children who qualify go home Friday with a back pack full of food to see them through the weekend.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 09:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Property taxes in France are, in principle, based on a percentage of rental value (rule of thumb : one month's worth of rent per year). That's not progressive.

However, the French system is powerfully redistributive, through the system of perequation : the central government imposes redistribution of the property tax take, in order that levels of public services stay roughly equal everywhere.

Compare this to the USA, where equality of opportunity remains a nice idea.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Jul 1st, 2010 at 10:15:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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