Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.
Display:
How is Germany going to feel about this?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First of all, Merkel is in Beijing as we speak being praised by Wen Jiabao and complaining about market access for German firms.

Second of all, German bondholders would be more than happy to sell their Spanish bond holdings to China.

In this connection, remember the nightmare of a balanced budget

A decision was taken recently in Berlin to introduce a balanced-budget law in the German constitution. It was a hugely important decision. It may not have received due attention outside Germany given the flood of other economic and financial news. From 2016, it will be illegal for the federal government to run a deficit of more than 0.35 per cent of gross domestic product. From 2020, the federal states will not be allowed to run any deficit at all. Unlike Europe's stability and growth pact, which was first circumvented, later softened and then ignored, this unilateral constitutional law will stick. I would expect that for the next 20 or 30 years, deficit reduction will be the first, second and third priority of German economic policy.
Münchau and other economists predict that the German bond market is going to evaporate in a few years' time
What is the rationale for such a decision? It cannot be economic, for there is no rule in economics to suggest that zero is the correct level of debt, which is what a balanced budget would effectively imply in the very long run. The optimal debt-to-GDP ratio might be lower for Germany than for some other countries, but it surely is not zero.
So maybe Germany will be happy that the Chinese will be lending money to the rest of the Eurozone to buy German products.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the US, 49 states with balanced budget amendments does not mean the abolition of state bonds. What it means is capital budgeting, with the budget required to be balanced on current spending and capital service.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 01:59:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which leads to all kinds of creative accounting.  There's also public debt for private purposes -- another fun one.

Asdf is probably familiar with this, as Colorado is one of the more amusing offenders (and if you listen closely, all the way from Ohio you can still hear my former colleague shouting, "How can you report no fucking debt?!?!").

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 04:36:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both the Euro's Stability and Growth (Suicide) Pact and Gordon Brown's onw fiscal "golden rule" have led to creative accounting over the past 10 years... PPP/PFI is the form of "public debt for private purposes" we like here in Europe...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 05:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At least for a given value of "we". And of "like".

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 01:57:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They'll be happy about it.

It means that the Chinese central bank rather than the German treasury will be bailing out the German banksters.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As you have noted China has accommodated the US by accumulating US treasury notes and other US paper. They could not allow this money into their domestic economy without triggering massive inflation and so the sat upon it. At least it protected China from a repeat of the '90s currency debacle or "Asian debt crisis".

Does this development with China buying Spanish bonds mean that China is, in effect, using more of the accumulated US paper to deal with a USD/EUR currency imbalance that threatened their own interests?

You cited some analysis from Jesse's Café Américain in support of your argument. Jesse has also been predicting a re-alignment of international currencies that will come to the fore with the revision of the definition of the Special Drawing Rights regime this fall, which Jesse had noted includes a gold component.

Do you see this entering into the developing GFC story and if so how?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 05:20:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the Euro crisis has thwarted China's monetary strategy for this year. In my diary What China wants 4 months ago I surmised
China wants to stop accumulating reserves and possibly unwind the ones they already hold. They might do this by allowing the Yuan to appreciate against other currencies, notably the dollar, but they don't just want that - they want to import high-tech goods from the US which at the moment is restricted by US policy. So, my interpretation of these words is that China intends to use their dollar reserves to pressure the US government to allow what amounts to technology transfer from the US to China. In fact, the way the Washington Post headlines their coverage (China's leader blames U.S. for bilateral tensions, rejects call to adjust currency) indicates that China is not about to give in on US calls to revalue their currency without access to the imports of their choice. The situation right now goes in the opposite direction, with both countries erecting mutual trade barriers.
Unfortunately for China, the Euro has dropped more than anyone was expecting at the start of the year and so China may have decided to prop it up a little. But this is just speculation.

If China decides to start lending to Europe it might get us out of the recession but here they are puching against the EU's policy stance of deficit and debt reduction. I guess instead of owing money to each other Europeans can owe it to China and still remain austere...

The problem with this is that Europe might get too comfortable and fall into the same trap the US fell into over the last couple of decade of unsustainable debt-fuelled economic activity...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 05:34:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I take that as a yes to my first question. :-)

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 06:17:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure China is "using their accumulated USD paper to deal with an USD/EUR imbalance". There is no indication here that China is reducing their holdings of US dollars in order to hold Euros instead. For all I know (I admit I haven't researched this) China could also be increasing their USD reserves, just not as much as they would have otherwise.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 06:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My thought was that China's exports to Europe were threatened by a weak Euro, compared to the dollar, while the Euro was down around $1.25. This might have been, in part, due to the need of European debtors to pay US$ denominated debts. This could have been most effectively remedied had China used some of its US Treasuries to buy Spanish treasuries, etc. This would give China something beneficial, (protecting its European export market) to do with US$ assets that it cannot or does not want to use in the USA. Do you know if they have done anything of the sort.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 07:19:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That makes sense, but I don't know how to figure out what is happening.

Who publishes statistics of foreign currency reserve holdings? The Bank of International Settlements? The IMF?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 07:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guess I was hoping you might have access to that sort of information. I have seen some info from BIS, but it is usually for the previous quarter and I have never seen purchases broken out by currency used to settle the transaction.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 09:01:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Currency Composition of Official Foreign Exchange Reserves (COFER)
COFER is an IMF database that keeps end-of-period quarterly data on the currency composition of official foreign exchange reserves.

...

COFER data are reported on a voluntary basis. At present, there are 140 reporters, consisting of member countries of the IMF, non-member countries/economies, and other foreign exchange reserves holding entities. The classification of countries in COFER (as advanced economies or emerging and developing economies) follows that currently used in IFS world tables.

...

COFER data for individual countries are strictly confidential. The data presented in the attached tables are aggregated data for each currency for three groupings of countries



By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 06:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So maybe we will have an idea in three months or so.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 09:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you assume that any bump in the composition of reserves for the aggregate entities (is China "developing" or "emerging"?) mostly comes from China's holdings.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 11:07:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I recall discussion of a "dollar squeeze" in the forex markets a month or so ago. I also recall the Fed renewing currency swaps in the same time frame. It may be that the amount of the currency swap was calibrated to prevent a currency meltdown, but not to prevent the euro from going to $1.22 or so. But if that was part of a dollar squeeze, (by US banks?), the Chinese might have just administered a lesson. You cannot run a dollar squeeze if the world's largest holder of US$ reserves doesn't allow you.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 01:37:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
But this is just speculation.

yours or china's?

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 06:38:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mine :P

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 06:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If China decides to start lending to Europe it might get us out of the recession

Only if a substantial minority of EU countries rejected austerity.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 06:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, no.

Suppose all debt that EU countries would otherwise buy from each other is instead bought by China. This frees up a substantial fraction of GDP to invest within the EU (or to spend buying iPods).

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 06:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that assumes there's something happening to invest in, and that the debt payments are converted into credit and/or disposable income.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 07:02:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
mmm, what it assumes is either
  1. ECB "prints" fiat to pay Chinese BONDHOLDERS;
  2. or EP taxes the living BEJEEBUS out of earned income to pay Chinese BONDHOLDERS

or not: Work the WTO room to extort trade "balance"

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 07:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did say one possibility was to use all that Chinese money to buy iPods (designed in California, built in China). That would be bad.

We could also make a determined push to change our economic model. That requires the political will to direct the economy in a particular direction, and to invest.

But, in any case, we would be allowing China to do our deleveraging for us.

In other words, borrowing from china what we'd otherwise borrow form each other (even if that borrowing is just rolling over of past debt) is a net positive. But we can use this for our long-term benefit or just piss it away and have another crisis a few years down the line.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 07:21:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Suppose all debt that EU countries would otherwise buy from each other is instead bought by China. This frees up a substantial fraction of GDP to invest within the EU (or to spend buying iPods).

I'm not so sure. Let's go over the mechanics.

First, the Chinese central bank converts European legal tender into Chinese legal tender through open market operations. Then, having obtained credit for an amount of European legal tender, it can convert some European sovereign bonds into European legal tender. The net effect of this process is to convert European sovereign bonds into Chinese legal tender.

This process makes the cost of liquidity - that is, the risk-free interest rate - go down in both Europe (because the price of bonds goes up, which decreases the effective compensation paid to providers of liquidity for their service) and China (because there is more liquidity available). But on the other hand, it creates a fiscal contraction in Europe, by lowering the overall monetary mass (since the Chinese legal tender will swiftly find its way back to China).

The main consequence of decreasing the price of liquidity is that it allows a going concern to convert its highly illiquid equity into highly liquid legal tender, though the magic of fractional reserve banking. Now, if you have a business environment in which equities are great or growing, the reduction in the cost of liquidity will prompt a great conversion of illiquid equity into liquid legal tender, thus increasing the average circulation velocity of the money supply greatly. This increase in average circulation velocity can then greatly outweigh the reduction in monetary mass. If, on the other hand, you have a depressed business environment where equities are small or decreasing, very little such conversion can take place - and the reduction of total monetary mass will dominate over the increase in velocity.

So the beneficial effect for Europe is not that these Chinese debt purchases stimulate our economy. It is actually contractionary under the current business environment. The benefit is that they are importing our inflation, which gives us more room for expansionary fiscal policy. However, this underwriting of the option for expansionary fiscal policy comes at the cost of impairing our foreign trade balance. So the fiscal expansion must be of a sort that comes with a reasonable story about how it will mitigate and reverse the de-industrialisation that goes with a trade deficit.

Which means that we have three basic options:

  1. Do nothing, or engage in further austerity. In that case, the contractionary and deflationary effects of the Chinese operation will further deepen our recession.

  2. Engage in expansionary fiscal policy in order to underwrite consumption (this includes bailing out banksters). This will help to get us out of the recession (faster if we underwrite the consumption of the poor and the middle class than if we underwrite the bad bets of the banksters, due to the greater multiplier effect from the former than the latter). But in the medium term, it will simply substitute the harsh de-industrialisation of a serious business depression with the softer, but no less effective, de-industrialisation through structural trade deficits.

  3. Engage in expansionary fiscal policy in order to underwrite investments in industrial capacity that will (preferably more than) offset the destruction of industrial capacity caused by the trade imbalance.

Only if we pick the third option will this be of any durable benefit to us.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 08:48:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm mostly with you, but I'm still wondering what a reduction in monetary mass would mean in practice.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter
by generic on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 09:48:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It means that people have less money to buy stuff with.

If the people who sold those bonds would otherwise have liquidated them and bought stuff for them, then it reduces domestic demand, by taking the liquid cash out of the economy (because the cash in question is Chinese and can therefore only be spent in China).

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 10:09:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shouldn't the cash be recycled Euros?

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter
by generic on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 10:57:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They could be.

But the alternative to recycling those euros is not to keep them in mattresses in China - it is to allow the people who earned them to buy European stuff with them (or, which comes to the same thing, to sell them for Chinese currency that some European merchant got from selling stuff to China).

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 11:00:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What matters here is the trade balance of the EU with China. A persistent deficit results in either EU bonds or Euro cash sitting in the vaults of the Bank of China and effectively out of circulation, depressing the monetary mass.

Being against the zero lower bound on interest rates means it makes no difference whether Chinal holds Euros or bonds. However, the widening spreads among Eurozone bond issuers mean that it now makes sense for China to hold (say) Spanish bonds rather than Euro cash. This partly offsets the liquidity drain from any EU trade deficit with China, as China releases Euro cash into circulation and holds illiquid bonds.

But if the fiscal policy is tight and you have a trade deficit the overall effect is still one of monetary drain.

However, China's trade balance with the US dwarfs the trade balance with the EU, so most of the action should be there,

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 11:05:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
China lends more to Europe, which lends more to the US - the difference being that EU investment in hard assets in the US is less controversial than China's, so instead of lending to the US to buy Treasuries, we could be lending to buy actual assets.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 19th, 2010 at 08:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any sense of how this Chinese entry into the European sovereign bond market will play into the negotiations for a re-balance of the composition of the IMF's SDRs? I would think it would improve China's position in the negotiations.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 12:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Distinguish between the stocks and the flows. If China wished to generate a collapse of the US$, they would sell US reserve assets to finance the purchase of Euro assets. Nothing in the diary suggests they are doing that.

If China wishes to re-weight their basket peg toward the Euro, the result would be more purchases of Euro assets and fewer purchases of US$ assets. The information in the diary suggests that.

If they wish to re-weight their basket peg toward the Euro, of course they would take the opportunity to buy risk-inflated returns even as their action reduces the objective risk. That improves their return, but more importantly reduces the risk of holding Euro assets in general. If a policy shift is large enough that it cannot be hidden, then be sure that there is a benefit to the actions that are visible.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jul 20th, 2010 at 02:07:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Top Diaries

Pentecost steam

by DoDo - May 20
23 comments

A Nomad's Life (A Farewell)

by Nomad - May 10
14 comments

Simple Solar Principles

by gmoke - May 17
2 comments

Rail News Blogging #24

by DoDo - May 12
11 comments

Ferguson hates on Keynes

by Migeru - May 6
100 comments

Occasional Series