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Here's two things to consider:

  1. In order for capitalization to efficiently occur in a primary market, a secondary market is necessary.  Unless there is a secondary market available to resell stuff, stuff sold in a primary market will fail to obtain the value it would otherwise achieve.  (Alternatively, a secondary market for something will almost always turn up if there is a primary market. Garage sales, for example, are examples of secondary markets.)

  2. It's usually better in a number of ways (as we've all recently learned regarding private credit default derivatives) to have a market that is regulated by society in some way instead of just private, back-room deals.

Therefore, a stock market, which is just a regulated market for legal entitlements to a firm's profits, is both needed and very beneficial in a capitalist society. Your analysis vastly underestimates their economic value both to firms that need to raise capital and to individual investors who want to maximize the value of their saved labor at any point in time.
by santiago on Thu Aug 26th, 2010 at 11:49:13 AM EST
In order for capitalization to efficiently occur in a primary market, a secondary market is necessary.

Only if you assume that initial capitalisation comes from either small investors or organisations who make it their business to capitalise new enterprises with the intention of selling their commitment on the secondary market.

However, what we increasingly see is that firms are initially capitalised out of retained earnings or by enclosing commons for sale (companies spinning off subdivisions, technology commercialisation piggybacking on university R&D, pork barrel projects offering a protected environment with guaranteed revenue streams, etc.). These are generally justified on the basis of the prospective revenue stream, not the prospective resale value.

It's usually better in a number of ways (as we've all recently learned regarding private credit default derivatives) to have a market that is regulated by society in some way instead of just private, back-room deals.

In the particular case of equities, however, your ability to sell depends on the sovereign's will and ability to enforce your buyer's claim. There is no physical product to hide, smuggle or transact in. Just as a simple decision to not enforce over-the-counter CDS contracts would kill the CDS market stone dead in an instant.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 26th, 2010 at 12:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if you assume that initial capitalisation comes from either small investors or organisations who make it their business to capitalise new enterprises with the intention of selling their commitment on the secondary market.

No, I only need to assume that at least some capitalisation comes from people who intend to resell at least some of their commitment relatively quickly in a secondary market.  If their money is left on the table, and it is a significant amount of money, it's inefficient. My claim would be that alot of venture capital, particularly in risky investments such as technology start-ups and artistic ventures, require the ability to realize a profit wihin a very short time horizon. Risk becomes reduced as a firm or industry matures, and the risk-seeking investors who require higher returns to justify the risk they take need to be able to exit and get replaced by risk-averse investors with lower return expectations.  Without a secondary market of risk averse investors -- the regulated stock markets, there would be significantly less venture capital available for innovative work.

by santiago on Thu Aug 26th, 2010 at 04:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I only need to assume that at least some capitalisation comes from people who intend to resell at least some of their commitment relatively quickly in a secondary market.  If their money is left on the table, and it is a significant amount of money, it's inefficient.

Fortunately, that's an empirical question: How much investment into emerging companies came from investors, as opposed to securing a revenue stream from the customers before launch? Unfortunately, I don't have the data at hand to answer that question.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 26th, 2010 at 07:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There has been a lot written about what an insider scam the IPO is. The company that arranges the IPO makes certain that their clients are able to sell some of their stock at a price that will not again be seen for some time and that other favored insiders get to buy at the initial price and quickly sell at the short lived top. The public gets access at that top and gets to hold the stock until it regains those levels -- if it does. Meanwhile, founders and insiders get to cash out. People complain, but nothing gets done.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Aug 26th, 2010 at 10:18:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a really simple solution here, which I use. Never participate in IPO's where the current owners cash out. If it was such a good investment they wouldn't sell their shares to you, would they?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 10:43:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the US IPOs are the preferred way for Venture Capital firms to unload their 'stake' and take a profit. It is also a way for the principals of the company to get a 'pay-back' for the work they've done.  Third, it is almost the only way, in the US, employees of the company actually get some economic benefit of the work they've done in relation to the "wealth" or "value" they've produced.  Somewhere down in the basement is getting money for the company to invest in current and future operation(s).  

Have to be a damn fool to buy into an IPO but there seems to be plenty of damn fools running around ... and we know what happens to their money!

by ATinNM on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 11:24:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There sure is a way to get economic benefit for the work they've put in: sit on the shares and accumulate dividends, and when the company looks over-valued, start selling off your shares.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 02:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the US new companies don't pay dividends.  
by ATinNM on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 08:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Neither do companies around here, not when they're start-ups. But after a few years when the cash flows heads to reasonable levels and the initial debt burden has been reduced, there'll be a surplus available for dividends.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Aug 28th, 2010 at 10:53:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dividends in the US are beside the point.  Microsoft only started paying them in 2003 when they had, from memory, about $30 billion sitting around in their bank accounts.

US stock markets operate under the Greater Fool Theory.

by ATinNM on Sat Aug 28th, 2010 at 12:35:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I know, the handful of US companies I have shares in all pay dividends.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Aug 28th, 2010 at 12:48:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
securing a revenue stream from the customers before launch

Ouch. That's tough enough when you have a going concern and an existing product - for example, a manufacturer of bespoke machine tools will be lucky to get 10% up front, the rest paid in installments as milestones are hit over the project period (say, 18 mo.). But an established company can often get financing to cover the cash flow.

It would be damn near impossible for a startup with no track record to finance development and manufacture of an unproven product through advanced sales (unless they're very good at marketing to morons).

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 01:17:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or they manage to latch on to a sovereign revenue stream with relatively relaxed oversight. In the US, this has traditionally been military pork barrel (Microsoft, for instance, started their business in the protective environment of selling to a Pentagon contractor).

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 03:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
re 1. yes, that is true. However, as I tried to argue and described with the google IPO in a comment, the capitalization in the primary market is usually not necessary as many firms acutally had enough money to grow from profitable business before. Therefore the whole primary market (in the sense of IPOs on an exchange) is not necessary and therefore the secondary market doesn't matter.

re 2. many things should be regulated yes. But buying and selling ownership shares in companies if done by professional investors who are in it for the long run and buy material stakes is not something that needs to be regulated or standardised in a stock market. Although, of course, you could be right and it ends in armageddon as with the CDS market. However, I think the players in this market would not be greedy short term bonus driven investment bankers...

generally, mutual ownership in a cooperative kind of structure has in my opinion many many advantages and is a model which is underrated and needs to be looked at in more detail (myself included).

by crankykarsten (cranky (where?) gmx dot organisation) on Thu Aug 26th, 2010 at 01:26:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In order to believe that the buying and selling of ownership shares in businesses doesn't need regulation, you have to be willing to believe that almost none of the businesses who would be selling unregulated shares of their future income would ever engage in fraudulent activity or that people would just stop investing in such shares if the government stopped enforcing their interests.  Are either of those really realistic beliefs to have given frequent news items regarding investor fraud, insider trading, unregulated hedge fund activities, etc.?

Compare it to another issue for illustration: Do you believe it would be better policy for the government to ban marijuana commerce entirely, as is usually the case today, or to regulate it? Why or why not, and whom would benefit or be harmed either way?

by santiago on Thu Aug 26th, 2010 at 05:06:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
Compare it to another issue for illustration: Do you believe it would be better policy for the government to ban marijuana commerce entirely, as is usually the case today, or to regulate it? Why or why not, and whom would benefit or be harmed either way?

I would say that drug regulation depends on how spread it is in the particular society. Banning commerce (outside medicinal proscription) of drugs that are not commonplace appears sometimes to be effective to prevent it from entering, while not effective when it comes to drugs that are already established.

I think this answer illustrates that it depends on the situation...

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 05:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... growth of existing firms that is primarily quashed by the reform, but rather establishment of innovative new firms.

Crunchyroll, for example, would not exist without venture capital: when it became untenable to proceed on its original basis, which relied on bootleg uploads, it would have simply shut down.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 05:27:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually I doubt that's true. If you stop thinking of venture capital as the financial equivalent of petrol and start thinking of it as a class benediction from the powerful to the less powerful - albeit a self-interested one, if the benediction happens to be blessed - then the role of venture capital becomes less positive.

The basic issue here isn't funding, it's collective social permissions and policy judgement. Businesses are only 'viable' or 'not viable' according to rules that are decided by the ownership class, and which are designed to benefit the ownership class.

VC is a lynchpin of the conspiracy which creates collective efforts - i.e. businesses and corporations - which are forced to follow the rules.

Real innovation might not be quite so constrained. If the restrictions on viability, profitability and payback were loosened it's possible we'd see an explosion of genuine inventiveness.

We'd also see more interest in projects with generational payback times, which are impossible to imagine with the current politics.

In fact the VC system guarantees that only socially trivial start-ups like Facebook are possible, and that the most interesting and creative long term R&D remains goverment funded, or in some cases barely funded (i.e. approved) at all.

Having said that, kickstarter is a new(ish) model that's doing some very interesting things, and could be retooled for other applications.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 07:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
VC is a lynchpin of the conspiracy which creates collective efforts - i.e. businesses and corporations - which are forced to follow the rules.

Whatever takes its place will also, if effective, be part of a conspiracy which creates collective efforts which are forced to follow the rules.

The rules that collective efforts are forced to follow may be changed, but the fact that they are is not going anywhere so long as we are social animals.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 09:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a conspiracy if it's overt and the rules are clear.

Currently the rules are hidden for very selective advantage, and it's implied that they're the only possible rules.

This is a nonsense in a nominal democracy. It excludes the majority of the population who are deprived of policy input, and it also makes rational policy choices impossible.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 08:14:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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