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You've just proved my point. If you're trying to get people to do things for you, the real world matters much less than scientists and engineers think it does.

At least until it falls apart on you. But by then it's too late.

The fact that the science community has failed to understand this and believes that all it has to do is present facts and people will do the right thing is literally its biggest failure of insight since the Enlightenment.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What am I supposed to get people to do for me?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 02:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
HSR, renewable energy, expanded mass transit systems...

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly.

Generally, stuff that works and lasts, rather than stuff that can't and doesn't.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 07:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well duh. And what please does that have to do with a critical observation about how much art resp. science says about the world?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in the comment upthread...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
The fact that the science community has failed to understand this and believes that all it has to do is present facts and people will do the right thing

I don't think you're talking about scientists or the "science community" much there...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 03:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think rather too many scientists see science as something virtuously separate from politics, except in narrow permitted bounds - i.e. not offered except when asked.

New Scientist had an interview with Phil Jones of Climategate recently and he said that he was very surprised by it all because he'd tried to keep it all completely apolitical.

As if the biggest policy issue in history, with literally trillions of profits in non-renewables at stake, was ever going to be left to disinterested research.

Scientists have spent their time chasing after homoeopaths and astrologers because of 'fraud' while economists have blown up the economy, slashed academic spending on research, closed departments, forced PhDs who could be doing useful research into jobs in finance, or put them on the dole.

Unfortunately just because someone isn't interested in politics, doesn't mean politics isn't interested in them.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 07:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"The fact that the science community has failed to understand this and believes that all it has to do is present facts and people will do the right thing is literally its biggest failure of insight since the Enlightenment."

Yawn - "it"s all about narrative" yet again - and yet another unsupported generalisation about a whole "community" - a rather diverse and argumentative one, and about the whole period since the Enlightenment - which actually did much to spread scientific ideas to a wider public - a tradition continued today - see earlier reply.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:33:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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