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I get it - you have complaints and we're all fucking doomed.  But again, what good is complaining about Obama personally and questioning his motives doing?  How is it helping?  I am NOT "complaining" that you're not "cheering"and I'd thank you not to put words in my mouth.  No one asked you to cheer.  I'm asking how everyone who's doing it thinks that destructive criticism is going to result in anything contructive.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 31st, 2010 at 09:19:33 PM EST
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PS. The end of the US, of the US government, is not DOOM. It's simply a new beginning, one I look forward to.

In the end, might makes right. Nothing has changed since the caveman.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Aug 31st, 2010 at 09:53:27 PM EST
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I am NOT "complaining" that you're not "cheering"...

And I have TRIED to avoid impugning his motives, inscrutable as they seem to be. His policies, regardless of motive, are enough to trip my gag reflex. Though I do have to wonder...

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 31st, 2010 at 11:06:40 PM EST
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You DO seem to be complaining that self identified progressives ARE complaining about the direction, or lack thereof, from the Obama Administration. Helen used the word "exasperation".

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 31st, 2010 at 11:09:44 PM EST
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I'm not telling anyone not to be exasperated -- I'm asking what good your tactic of criticizing him personally is doing.  I didn't say a thing about 'self identified progressives.'  I said the articles linked to, as I pointed out, is nothing more than assertions leading to only one conclusion -- that Obama is "choosing" not to get things done.  I'm asking, again -- what people who support this sort of thing are hoping to accomplish?  Claiming you haven't technically assigned him a motive is disingenuous when you're asserting he's choosing not to do the right thing.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 31st, 2010 at 11:39:31 PM EST
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Well, perhaps this doesn't make you at least wonder. The need for narrative is strong. If Team Obama doesn't supply a credible narrative, others will. The identity of some of those "others" exasperates others of those "others", as does the identity of some of those Team Obama accepts into their dressing room. (The "Cat Food Commission" is the name "professional leftists" have given President Obama's National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, which originally was to feature Pete Peterson as the opening speaker and has Alan Simpson as a commissioner. But you cannot blame the Brits for being disgusted/alarmed, as they have had years of similar treatment at the hands of Nulabor.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 12:08:33 AM EST
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Yes, the need for narrative is apparently so strong that my asking a question, which still hasn't been answered, is seen as blaming the brits, asking for cheering, and slamming progressives, all of which you've accused me of instead of answering my question -- assuming you're absolutely right (for the sake of discussion), what good is stating versions of "Obama is wrong/bad" over and over doing?  I'll ask again - how is that helping us get towards our goals?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 12:38:17 AM EST
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How is supporting him helping us to get towards any goal I see as worthwhile? Just because he is president I should support him? You could have asked me the same question about LBJ. The opinions of those who voted for him in '08 should matter to him. It is more than just the "professional leftists" that he has to worry about.

If space aliens abducted Obama and his entire administration and they were never heard from again that might put us further down the road to accomplishing goals that are vital to our survival than Obama seems likely to accomplish in the time that remains to him. At least there would be the possibility of a real leader emerging.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 12:57:53 AM EST
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Just because he is president I should support him?

There you go filling in your narrative for me again -- where did I say you should support him (or, below, stay silent)?  Are the only choices either supporting him or making personal attacks?  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 03:27:57 AM EST
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I'm asking what good your tactic of criticizing him personally is doing.

Criticizing Obama is not a TACTIC. It is an unavoidable reaction to what I and many others see as an ongoing disaster. Ask most of the US House of Representatives who are up for reelection in November just how much help they expect Obama to be to their reelection or if any one or anything, other than money, from the Obama White House would help them. Could you get a candid answer, most, including the Blue Dogs, would probably say: "Not much, but I am glad for the money". Others might go so far as to say: "Please don't make a public offer of the possibility of an Obama campaign appearance! I don't want to embarrass us both."

There is no obligation of loyalty on my part to Obama or the Democratic Party. I have been a registered Democrat since 1964 and have, I believe, always voted for Democratic candidates, not out of principle, but as a tactic. Since 1965 I have become accustomed to being in strong disagreement with the policies of Democratic Presidents. It is not my role to fall in line with the leadership. There role is to decide if my vote and the votes of people with similar views are worth accommodating. In truth, there is no party that has really represented my views. There have only been occasional candidates that came close, such as Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.

I am becoming more and more convinced that the only way forward is via a political realignment into a Reform Party that has as its prime objective dismantling the financial capture of Washington DC by the financial elites and fundamental reform of campaign finance. There are dangers in this approach, as the paleocons, such as Paul Craig Roberts, and the libertarians, such as Ron Paul, have very different social agendas. But we are, I fear, approaching the point at which the danger of the current system is even greater.

The effectiveness of Obama's political leadership has been such that the Democrats may well loose the House in November and loose ground in the Senate. The economy will continue to deteriorate and may well experience another collapse before November 2012 that is worse than that of October '08. Blaiming all of this on Bush will not cut it by then and we could well have a new Republican President with a Republican majority in both houses. We could then be reduced to hoping that there would even be future elections.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 10:57:05 AM EST
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you have complaints and we're all fucking doomed.

I do not maintain that we ARE doomed, only that we WILL BE if we cannot, um, gather ourselves together to do what must be done. My concern with Obama is that he seems to avoid all opportunities to even start on what needs to be done -- deal with the power of the corporations, especially the financial corporations.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 12:22:37 AM EST
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and once more, how is saying how wrong/bad Obama is going to help us, um, gather ourselves together and do what must be done?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 12:40:15 AM EST
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From my point of view, why should I remain silent?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 12:48:57 AM EST
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Who said you should?  I asked you to answer a question, not to shut up.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 03:28:47 AM EST
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The answer to your "question" is that it is less a question than a frame. From the point of view of those who created the frame "constant criticism and blame of Obama" is just playing into the hands of the opposition. From my point of view continuing the course that the Obama White House has taken is just playing into the hands of the opposition. I reject the frame and the question.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 11:01:55 AM EST
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Uh, no -- the question is not a 'frame.'  It's a direct question asked about things directly posted here.  The articles criticized him personally and I asked what good you thought that did and what it was supposed to accomplish.  There was no implication or placing the question in any sort of ideological or accusatory framework.  All the other side-arguments you've dragged into this discussion have come from you, not my question.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 02:40:46 PM EST
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I am NOT "complaining" that you're not "cheering"and I'd thank you not to put words in my mouth.

A question such as: "What good is that going to do?" is, inherently, a criticism of that about which the question is asked. You are certainly smart enough to know that, so I find your accusation of my putting words in your mouth to be a bit disingenuous. The whole question: "what good is complaining about Obama personally and questioning his motives doing?" smacks of being a carefully contrived rhetorical device that has been focus group tested and shown to be effective at confounding critics of Obama's corporatist policies or any other criticism. Twelve efficient words to silence the opposition.

For those of us who feel that where Obama is leading the nation is worse than where we are there is an answer to the question: "It shows those who are not too arrogant to listen that the policies they are following are losing them the support of a section of their former supporters." and "It provides a means for former supporters to show that they are not complicit in policies that they believe will prove disastrous."

It is probably going to be a bloodbath for Democrats in November. "What good will it do them to blame the defeat on leftwing bloggers?" Well, it IS handy to have a scapegoat. Perhaps even some of the Kossacks will have learned a lesson.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 01:34:48 PM EST
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The whole question: "what good is complaining about Obama personally and questioning his motives doing?" smacks of being a carefully contrived rhetorical device that has been focus group tested and shown to be effective at confounding critics of Obama's corporatist policies or any other criticism. Twelve efficient words to silence the opposition.

That's ridiculous -- it's a direct question -- "what do you hope to accomplish" -- not a 'rhetorical device" to "silence the opposition."  It's not like I asked why you hate Obama/the left/america, etc. where there was an accusation included.

If you have a defensive response to the question and are wondering why, perhaps it has more to do with your answer than the question.  Which I thank you for FINALLY answering, despite surrounding it by further accusations and suppositions.

For those of us who feel that where Obama is leading the nation is worse than where we are there is an answer to the question: "It shows those who are not too arrogant to listen that the policies they are following are losing them the support of a section of their former supporters." ...It is probably going to be a bloodbath for Democrats in November."

"It provides a means for former supporters to show that they are not complicit in policies that they believe will prove disastrous."

So if I'm reading this correctly, you believe Obama is making things worse, that the Dems will lose power, and that this is ok because 'the left' is withdrawing support for principled reasons?  And... you want to be vocal about why, but don't want any blame later?  Does this make any sense to you?  Do you have any thoughts on what might work to help the situation?  or is it impossible?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 02:24:47 PM EST
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It is not me that the Democrats have to worry about. I held my nose and voted for Humphry, for Mondale, for the idiot in a tank from Boston, will certainly hold my nose and vote for my local Blue Dogs and probably will vote for Obama in 2012, unless there is a more appealing alternative from a third party that seems actually to have a chance. For me voting is tactical. My opinions are my opinions and if the leaders of the Democratic Party care about them, they can try to so indicate by means other than cheap rhetoric. What they will lose is any enthusiasm from most on the left. (I didn't have much in '08 - hopes was about as far as it got.)

As far as the left withdrawing support, most will probably vote tactically for Democrats this year and for Obama in 2012 but be less willing to make small contributions. But while the Obama campaign made much of their online donors, they were not as significant as their financial sector donors. I doubt that the Obama machine gives a FF about small donations from the left. But they will be happy to blame disaffected progressives for their own failures. It won't be the progressives fault if the independents dessert the Democrats in droves, and I hope they don't...

Without trying to speak for others, I am not "trying to accomplish" anything other than letting pollsters, elected officials and candidates know what I want - more progressive policies and candidates. I am not going to change that just because "accomplishment" is improbable. Asking me "what I want to accomplish by criticizing Obama" attempts to shift responsibility for the results from their actions and policies to my attitudes. That is ridiculous.

That might not be what you intend by the question, but you are far from the first from whom I have heard that question. Booman was, in effect, asking the same question back in the summer of '08. Since then it has appeared any time the progressives complain about the direction of the Obama Administration. Probably within a few years some political guru will step forth and claim credit for coming up with that question for the Obama campaign, though it is likely as old as politics.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 03:43:54 PM EST
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"what I want to accomplish by criticizing Obama" ~ it has appeared any time the progressives complain about the direction of the Obama Administration

Again, you're misrepresenting what I said and conflating criticism of direction or action with personal criticism.  There's a major difference.  I was asking my question in regards to the latter.  I'm amazed by how defensive you are about it -- claiming it contains framing, was focussed-grouped, and now that a political guru would want credit for it.  

If you post your opinions in a public forum, especially a political discussion site, then they are no longer simply 'your opinions.'  They're an attempt to persuade or inform others.  When you write and publish, you're taking an action.  As such, it's perfectly valid for me to ask what you hope to accomplish by it.  

Asking it is not some bullshit genius political frame or an attempt to 'silence' you or to 'shift blame' or whatever other narrative you have in your head.  It's an honest question.  Sorry it makes you so uncomfortable.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 1st, 2010 at 04:46:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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