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Describing India or the Middle East as 'empty space' is an eccentric definition of historical reality. Although it's certainly a revealing one.

The Empire was never just 'a trading bloc' - it was a resource extraction enterprise. Industrialisation wasn't necessary because the point was to bring raw materials home and export processed goods abroad, not vice versa.

The US has decided to take the opposite approach, which may turn out to be less than entirely wise because it introduces obvious dependencies and strategic weaknesses.

As for China being American - has anyone told the Chinese?

Using that argument the US is actually a colony of Israel, Saudi-Arabia and China.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 15th, 2010 at 07:21:07 AM EST
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The point is that the British empire in 1910 consisted of Britain and a bunch of places where capitalism and industrialization had yet to take hold -- the poorer parts of the world.  The American empire, by contrast, consists of most of the industrialized countries and the wealthiest parts of the world, in addition to some of the poorest.  Therefore, the two are in different categories entirely.
by santiago on Wed Sep 15th, 2010 at 01:17:55 PM EST
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In what exotic view of history were India and China 'the poorer parts of the world'?

And I see you've avoided my point about the strategic failures inherent in US de-industrialisation.

When most of your military hardware relies completely on components, raw materials and energy sources that have to be imported from potential enemies, you are not in a winning position.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 15th, 2010 at 01:46:44 PM EST
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Most of American military hardware does not rely on things imported from potential enemies unless your definition of "potential" is dishonestly wide. A lot of it is, however, imported from formal allies.

RE: China and India. They weren't industrialized in 1910, and they still aren't, although in just the last decade they have gotten around to doing something about it.  I think you'll find that there are few who would disagree with the categorization of China and India in 1910 as two of the poorest places in the world, especially since, despite all of their economic growth, over the last decade, that categorization still applies to them.

I didn't avoid your point about strategic failures inherent in de-industrialization. It just isn't a compelling claim on its own with regards to the discussion at hand.  You'd almost have to post your own diary on it to warrant the variety of implicit claims made in it. For example, how, specifically, is a "resource extraction bloc" different from a "trading bloc?"  And why should we presume that resource extraction for the purposes of exporting manufactures creates any less a dependency than importing low-cost manufactures for the purpose of consumption? And why is dependency even a problem for an empire at all -- isn't creating interdependency relationships the whole purpose of an empire?

by santiago on Wed Sep 15th, 2010 at 02:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And why should we presume that resource extraction for the purposes of exporting manufactures creates any less a dependency than importing low-cost manufactures for the purpose of consumption?
 
This should be obvious on its face:  Consumption is the dead end of the resource-to-product-to-trash trajectory--no further value or use is possible.  To be a consumer is to be helpless, economically.  This in turn leads to political helplessness.  

The stark but useful image is this:  Who has power--the junkie or the drug dealer?

Yeah, I know many Americans would say the junkie, but that is just proof of cluelessness and the whole reason we are now swirling down the shitter.  

isn't creating interdependency relationships the whole purpose of an empire?

No.  The purpose is extracting wealth from conquered regions and colonies.  All national strategists understand this perfectly well.  Usually the wealth extracted is raw materials, but it doesn't have to be.  The main thing is the ability to compel unfavorable terms of trade.  

So:  Is China attached to the US rather than the other way around?  Certainly they are getting unfavorable terms of trade, that is, low prices for the stuff they produce.  But by getting the low prices on industrial goods, rather than raw materials, they have become industrialized--which means materially and technically capable.  

Thus the US is getting immediate benefits (cheap goodies) at Chinese expense, while China is getting the long term benefit of economic strength and capability.  Both sides are taking on costs:  for China massive pollution and for the US social breakdown and loss of capability.  

As Chris Cook points out, by September 2007 the US had lost the strategic initiative--the ability to force events rather than be forced by them.  By September 2008 both China and Russia and demonstrated, independently and separately, and in the latter case very publicly, that they could veto US actions in western Asia.  

Thus a relative decline in American power is a two-year-old fact.  An absolute decline is also postulated, on economic and geological grounds.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Sep 15th, 2010 at 09:45:32 PM EST
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Britain quite intentionally destroyed Indian manufacture in order to build up British manufacture. That they ran rich India into the ground, causing poverty and starvations while building Britain as an industrialized nation does not show that India was of little importance, it shows that Britain wanted to move the most valued parts of the production chain to Britain.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 16th, 2010 at 07:28:53 AM EST
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Most infamously, Clive ordered the weavers of Calcutta to be rounded up and to have their thumbs amputated, thereby creating a demand for British cloth by destroying a large part of the Indian homespun production and setting a stunning example to those who remained.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 16th, 2010 at 11:09:28 AM EST
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that is so f**ing sick. omfg, that evil is beyond monstrous.

doubtless formalised in exquisite documentation in triplicate, and signed off as 'necessary measures were taken'.

"It's very hard to see what is kept invisible" Roseanne Barr

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Sep 16th, 2010 at 12:00:09 PM EST
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