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Numbers of neurones, numbers of interconnections?

I'm deeply unhappy with that idea, because it means that (certain specialised) computers will rapidly have far higher degrees of consciçousness than us. If they don't already.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Sep 7th, 2010 at 02:21:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's active discussions going on in the Philosophy of Mind, Cognitive Science, and some Artificial Intelligence folks about this very subject.  The Chinese Room thought experiment is the basis of the best of the bunch, IMO.  

I tend to shy away from the discussion:

  1. The discussion too easily degenerates into a shouting match between people with high emotive weights assigned to their intellectual position(s)

  2. We don't, in my opinion, have a good grasp of what consciousness is in the first place so trying to decide if X is exhibiting consciousness is more than a bit of a puzzlement

  3. However the brain turns out to work, and that's an open question at this time, it a fact it's NOT a computer and doesn't work like one

Regarding the second half of your comment, IF "consciousness" - whatever that is - is solely a matter of enough processing units (neurons) and interconnection (dendrites and axons) of those processing units THEN the internet would certainly have way more than enough to qualify.  Even without a solid definition of "consciousness" I can easily, I submit, state the internet has not exhibited "consciousness" in any manner whatsoever.

Organization and "software" matters.  A Lot.  

Finally, the only "conscious," "intelligent," system we can point to are humans and it's becoming very clear Cognitive ability (frontal lobe processing) depends, to a large extent, on Emotion (limbic lobe processing) and the connections and processing 'twixt and 'tween the two; not only immediately but also processing based on learning, memory, and prediction.  Computers, of course, have a fairly good 'Cognitive' memory but are as dumb as a sack of hammers in the other two areas.

So ...

Don't worry.  Humans aren't obsolete and we show no signs of being replaced by computers.

:-)

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 7th, 2010 at 12:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We also have proof, I think, that a child that survives and grows without human contact will not develop language spontaneously. There has to be a context in which consciousness is aroused.

If consciousness, as I propose, emerges through the developing complexity of multiple simultaneous 'terminations', then I would further suggest that consciousness is not a reproducible 'state' that could be artificially encoded, i.e. AC or Artificial Consciousness could not reproduce the effect of boot-up lasting a lifetime (though some MS driven computers may show this tendency).

And that the entire journey from 100% noise in the womb to a fair bit of signal in the noise when you leave school, is only accomplished by the effects of the very basic 'wow' and 'ugh' factors. Wow = this feels good, ugh = this feels bad. Wow = gotta remember this so I can do it again. Ugh = gotta remember this so I don't so it again.

Even the sea anemone's 8 neurons are capable of wow and ugh.

Wow and Ugh are both biochemically driven, and the process by which new neural connections are made or reinforced depends on particularly shaped molecules fitting into precise receptors. This is not manageable or reproducible 'data'.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 7th, 2010 at 01:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The "Wolf-Child" investigations are rife with problems.  One major, major, problem is evident once one starts looking at the role of social interaction in language acquisition.  In social situations it seems babies -- and baby studies have their own problems -- commence acquiring the phonemes of their Mother Tongue within the first year.  "Babbling" - trying all sounds within the totality of 'Phoneme Space' - is restricted and reinforced by the mother to the ones used in the Mother language.  Language seems to be something we 'Do' - I don't want to say "instinctive!" - as soon as the brain gets 'on-line.'  Without this feed-back I find "Wolf-Child" questionable in regards to providing a basis of generalization.
by ATinNM on Tue Sep 7th, 2010 at 02:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the babbling will still be in 'imitation' - seeking to reproduce patterns by trial and error.

Put yourself in the baby's bootees: mum' breast, soft cooing, milk taste and smell, blankies, being held and being warm - these are all synesthesically almost one - to start with. But I imagine (citation needed) that as sensations begin to be 'categorized' or patternized, that 'dialogue' is discovered. "I hear sounds, I make sounds'. The baby is communicating.

And for me, it is communication that leads to enlightenment ;-)

Helen Adams Keller (June 27, 1880-June 1, 1968) was an American author, political activist, and lecturer. She was the first deafblind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree.[1][2] The story of how Keller's teacher, Anne Sullivan, broke through the isolation imposed by a near complete lack of language, allowing the girl to blossom as she learned to communicate, has become known worldwide through the dramatic depictions of the play and film The Miracle Worker.


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 7th, 2010 at 03:40:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Babbling starts "spontaneously" and then the babble is slowly refined and defined through feedback from the mother until the sub-set of all possible phonemes used by the Mother Language is acquired.  This is "communication," I suppose; I'd prefer to call it "the earliest stage of language acquisition" as the phrase is less liable to misinterpretation.  And it can be used to set-up valid experiments.  

Not too much later, these phonemes are combined into words and proto-words.  "No" seems to be not only easily learned but the most common of all words used in the first stage of verbal communication.  :-)

Put yourself in the baby's bootees ...

Not unless, and until, I reincarnate.  :-D

Some of the worst papers I've read are Baby Studies claiming all kinds of things ... based on experimenter projection, IMNSHO.
 

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 7th, 2010 at 04:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven Triloqvist:
And for me, it is communication that leads to enlightenment ;-)

I would say it is communication that leads to mutual acknowledgement of consciousness. So Internet will be recognized as soon as it has its own webpage that spontaneously updates :)

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Sep 8th, 2010 at 11:46:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hesitate to post but this:

video gives a most inadequate brief of what I'm on about.

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 7th, 2010 at 02:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't disagree with any of that. Neural processes have that illusion of complexity. But my 'complexity' is at the 'terminations'. Neural processes end up somewhere - they terminate. Most of these terminations feed behaviour which we become conscious of after the fact (if only because of the time that it takes for signals to traverse the system).


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 7th, 2010 at 04:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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