P2 and the like aside, most Anglo-American lodges are dedicate to the betterment of mankind.
I sure appreciated the scholarship money that they gave me for college. And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
Also their penetration into the judiciary and police services has led to serious miscarriages of justice.
Maybe it's different in the US, but we'd be better off without 'em here keep to the Fen Causeway
I believe JaP wrote about the privatisation of welfare under the guise of charity. It is all very well caring for widows and orphans and even fluffy kittens, but such sentiments are very poor antennae for finding the greatest needs in society. keep to the Fen Causeway
Remember that when they came for the Jews and the Communists that the Freemasons were on that list too.
Sigh..... And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
Simply saying that people do a lot of business in lodges that freezes out non-masons, particularly women, ain't quite at the level of saying there is a worldwide conspiracy to channel babies for shape-shifting Lizard people's feasts.
A car backfiring is not an enabler for nuclear conflict keep to the Fen Causeway
Claiming that Jews steal Gentile babies to drain them of their blood is nothing like claiming that the Elders of Zion manipulate world politics.
Sigh...... And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
I know you don't like backing up what you say with references, but that one really calls for some.
Sadly, a lot of this is pre-internet and not searchable keep to the Fen Causeway
Teabaggers are paranoid people. idiot paranoia about masonic conspiracies penetrating the American government and sending out signals via the currency are pretty much par for the course for people who can write "Get a Brian, Morans" on a placard and hold it up as unintended political commentary.
He was mocking the mindset, not masons. It was me that did that. keep to the Fen Causeway
'sides, I don't think that was his inference.
Indeed. I personally did not consider it a mason reference because - in the context of my post - I thought he just meant:
The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
What I'm not sure is clear to the Europeans here is how this has been the object of conspiracy theory in the US.
Some conspiracy theories state that the Great Seal shows a sinister influence by Freemasonry in the founding of the United States. Such theories usually claim that the Eye of Providence (found, in the Seal, above the pyramid) is a common Masonic emblem, and that the Great Seal was created by Freemasons.[40]. These claims, however, misstate the facts. While the Eye of Providence is currently a common Masonic motif, this was not the case during the 1770s and 1780s (the decades when the Great Seal was being designed and approved). According to David Barrett, a Masonic researcher, the Eye seems to have been used only sporadically by the Masons in those decades, and was not adopted as a common Masonic symbol until 1797, several years after the Great Seal of the United States had already been designed.[41] The Eye of Providence was, on the other hand, a fairly common Christian motif throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and was commonly used as such in Europe as well as America throughout the 18th century.[19][42] Furthermore, contrary to the claims of these conspiracy theories, the Great Seal was not created by Freemasons.[43] While Benjamin Franklin was a Mason, he was the only member of any of the various Great Seal committees definitively known to be so, and his ideas were not adopted.[44] Of the four men whose ideas were adopted, neither Charles Thomson, Pierre Du Simitière nor William Barton were Masons and, while Francis Hopkinson has been alleged to have had Masonic connections, there is no firm evidence to support the claim.[45][46]
While the Eye of Providence is currently a common Masonic motif, this was not the case during the 1770s and 1780s (the decades when the Great Seal was being designed and approved). According to David Barrett, a Masonic researcher, the Eye seems to have been used only sporadically by the Masons in those decades, and was not adopted as a common Masonic symbol until 1797, several years after the Great Seal of the United States had already been designed.[41] The Eye of Providence was, on the other hand, a fairly common Christian motif throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and was commonly used as such in Europe as well as America throughout the 18th century.[19][42]
Furthermore, contrary to the claims of these conspiracy theories, the Great Seal was not created by Freemasons.[43] While Benjamin Franklin was a Mason, he was the only member of any of the various Great Seal committees definitively known to be so, and his ideas were not adopted.[44] Of the four men whose ideas were adopted, neither Charles Thomson, Pierre Du Simitière nor William Barton were Masons and, while Francis Hopkinson has been alleged to have had Masonic connections, there is no firm evidence to support the claim.[45][46]
The implication is that there is some sort of Masonic (typically cast as anti-Christian because of freemasonry's acceptance of Jews and Muslims) plot that controls the US government.
Anti-masonry and anti-semitism are blood brothers. Primarily because the perpetuation of conspiracy theories has resulted in the loss of blood in many countries. And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
Some of the Founding Fathers do indeed seem to have been Masons, and Washington has some interesting architecture.
But given that the Teabaggers have some very obvious funding and support, invocation of the Masons isn't necessary.
In this case I'm more amused by how transparently predatory the biz-op people are - but that's not new for biz-op culture. (Diary soon...)
The UK has different associations. The typical mainstream assumption here is that if you know the secret Masonic handshakes (etc) you're likely to be treated rather leniently by the police and judiciary, should you happen to find yourself on the wrong side of them.
A few fringe CTers have built this up into a general theory of Masonic corruption, complete with paedophile rings, soul-eating alien lizards, and a wink to the Protocols of Zion - but it all gets a bit odd at that point, and I don't usually find myself nodding along in agreement.
You already know the signal.
Although Helen's responses have me about as tweaked as listening to racists explaining how they don't hate all people of color just the "bad" ones.
Excuse me, what the heck are you implying ? To deny that low order corruption hasn't been a feature of masonic lodges in the UK is to fly in the face of a series of investigations that led to membership of a lodge being a reportable association for certain occupations in the UK.
This is not to say ALL, or even many, masons are corrupt. It is just that in the UK (which I specifically mentioned), masonry and associated secrecy has been too easily and frequently used as a conduit for very particular forms of corruption to the extent that masonry, in the UK, has become quite tainted in the public mind. In saying so, I don't think I am invoking blood libels or the Protocols of the elders of Sion, or the Essenes or Sang Real or shape shifting lizards or anything.
so, equating what I'm saying to being some form of racist appeasement, is more than a little over the top . keep to the Fen Causeway
This is not to say ALL, or even many, masons are corrupt. It is just that in the UK (which I specifically mentioned), masonry and associated secrecy has been too easily and frequently used as a conduit for very particular forms of corruption to the extent that masonry, in the UK, has become quite tainted in the public mind.
Most social organizations have been put to this purpose, particularly those with the long histories.
If the sins of the few taint the whole, then you've just bought the BNP reasoning for why Muslims should treated with suspicion.
Should we treat all non-heterosexuals as suspect because of Geert Wilders and the rainbow banners that the BNP have started carrying at rallies? And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
I'm finding your defensiveness irrational. In the UK Masons are mostly seen as a rather boring and mundane back-scratching old boys' club - possibly slightly sinister, perhaps a bit comical, but mostly quite ignorable.
Outside the fringe, no one here associates Masons with either pro- or anti-Semitic sentiments, pro- or anti-Muslim sentiments, or with racism.
Which is not to say that - e.g. - some of the Police and judiciary aren't racist and/or authoritarian. They clearly are.
But that's because some of them are vile and ignorant people, not because of what they get up to on Lodge nights - if they belong at all.
But you're ignoring everyone else's experience besides your own. And not a little British political history too.
Implying that any less than vehemently positive opinion about the Masons is equivalent to near-Godwin-ish anti-Semitism doesn't seem particularly rational in this context.
