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Ah, right blame the ECB. Because the irish elites who created this low tax no regulation paradise are not blame at all. Instead they got you rooting for them.

And Iceland: I still think the glorious icelandish plan to split their banks and give the new part the assets and the old the debts was fraudulent. Especially because the domestic deposits were in the new bank and the foreign deposits in the old. But in the long run they will pay anyway. They already have to some countries.

by IM on Fri Feb 4th, 2011 at 06:24:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No I'm not. Burn them. Tax them to oblivion. But the issue is not whether the elites or the people are to shoulder the blame. Under current arrangements workers pay for the debt and the elites (Irish, German etc) are free to make even more money and reflate some new bubble or whatever the magic fairy of unfettered markets tells them to do. How is that fair? At this point getting rid of the austerity seems a prerequisite for even the most basic popular input in the matter. And this is not solely an Irish  matter. Why should we care to protect German (or Irish, or whatever) bankers?

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Feb 4th, 2011 at 06:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree the Irish elites need to be held accountable, in the strict sense of that word.  All those "profits" (sic) need to be seized and used to help alleviate the crises.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Fri Feb 4th, 2011 at 06:32:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The "well you chose this" option is nonsense.

It's like a spouse discovering that the other spouse is a crook who's defending themselves by saying "You married me for the nice house, so it's your fault I'm a thief."

People are trained - bizarrely - to assume that this economics stuff is far over their heads and they should leave it to the experts without expressing an opinion on it.

But the so-called experts act without oversight or accountability.

When a doctor fucks up badly and kills multiple people, the doctor is - at least - struck off.

Finance has no formal code of conduct, no regulatory body that can ban individuals from working in the industry, and no system for personal accountability when egregious errors are made.

Criminal fraud can be punished, but stupid decisions that ignore even the most basic requirements of due diligence aren't.

Since financiers have no concept of personal responsibility, default isn't just good economic sense, it's also the only option that can send the industry a message about ethical standards.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 4th, 2011 at 07:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, right blame the ECB. Because the irish elites who created this low tax no regulation paradise are not blame at all. Instead they got you rooting for them.

Did you miss the part where I argued that the Irish oligarchs need to lose their shirts as well?

Here's a hint:

Then you make two lines on each of the two lists: One line between people you really, really want to save (ordinary bank depositors, industrial firms, etc.) and people you kinda sorta want to save if you can (private pension funds, non-toxic investment banks - if you have any of those left - etc.), and another line between the people you kinda sorta want to save and the evil people who should take a long walk off a short pier (bookies, toxic investment banks, everything with a business address on Canary Wharf).

Then you mix the lists like this:

Domestic need-to-save
Foreign need-to-save
Domestic want-to-save
Foreign want-to-save
Evil (foreign and domestic)

All the people on the 'evil' part of the list should ultimately end up losing their shirts completely.

And Iceland: I still think the glorious icelandish plan to split their banks and give the new part the assets and the old the debts was fraudulent.

That is a perfectly ordinary bank intervention. There is nothing fraudulent about that, and indeed it is how a bank is put through bankruptcy every month somewhere in the OECD.

But in the long run they will pay anyway.

No. Really, they won't have to pay anybody who isn't going to send a gunboat to Reykjavik.

They may want to pay some of their creditors, because they view their claims as legitimate, or because they want to avoid the political fallout from not paying them. But sovereign states never have to pay their creditors.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 5th, 2011 at 02:30:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, that's sometimes how they get non-sovereign.

Align culture with our nature.
by ormondotvos (ormond no spam lmi net no spam) on Sat Feb 5th, 2011 at 10:07:16 PM EST
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Because the irish elites who created this low tax no regulation paradise are not blame at all.

They're already fucked. Most of them are down to whatever small numbers of millions they managed to squirrel away in the wife's name. They're not exactly homeless and starving, but they're down to a small percentage of their previous "wealth".  The ones that aren't are the ones who were rich before the boom. Some of them are still managing to appear rich, but they're standing in the air at the top of a canyon they just haven't noticed.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 7th, 2011 at 09:45:55 AM EST
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