Japan disasters open thread | 315 comments (315 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Japan disasters open thread (4.00 / 2)

Chief Cabiet Secretary Yukio Edano says there was an explosion at Tokyo Electric Power Co's (TEPCO) Fukushima nuclear power plant after the quake but not at the reactor container.

To recap: with reports that the explosion was a hydrogen explosion outside the containment vessel but inside the external structure that was visibly heavily damaged, and falling radiation levels after the explosion, the one interpretation I see is that the exploding hydrogen was (in) the gas vented from the containment vessel to reduce pressure.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 08:21:57 AM EST

via BBC (none / 0)

Noriyuki Shikata, from Japanese PM's office tweets: "TEPCO's [Tokyo Electric Power Company] efforts to depressurize the container was successful. Additional measures are now taken tonight using sea water and boric acid. "

This means they are still in big trouble trying to cool the core, and not out0 of danger of meltdown.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 09:02:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: via BBC (none / 0)

I had no idea any of this was happening.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 09:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: via BBC (none / 0)

Check the previous thread.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 09:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: via BBC (4.00 / 2)

I'm reading via Gogle translate that by midnight local time, pressure went down to 375 kPa (the design value is 400), but they still plan another venting (? not sure about this). They say the explosion was in the turbine house Here is a close-up photo of the damaged building:

Here is a cross-section:

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 01:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: via BBC (none / 0)

So, basically, the flimsy walls of the reactor hall were blown away. The concrete containment and the reactor vessel cap might well survive that, it is after all very robust.

Still, the reactor will never return to service again, not after they flood the core with seawater. Which by the way is not some ad-hoc solution, but in the emergency plans, at least in Sweden.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 01:24:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: via BBC (4.00 / 2)

I remember reading in one of the Google translates that the power plant spokesman specifically said that they never planned for something like this and hope that everything will go right.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 03:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its an assumption that seems to .... (4.00 / 2)

... be picked up in the process of learning how to quantify quantifiable risks, that risks that are hard to stick a number on are therefore risks with a weight of zero.

The same fallacy is endemic throughout mainstream economics.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 01:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fukushima Daiichi n°1 reactor's building (4.00 / 3)

Click to enlarge

Source : World Nuclear News - Battle to stabilise earthquake reactors

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 01:45:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fukushima Daiichi n°1 reactor's building (none / 0)

Also a good presentation by the NYT: The Crippled Japanese Nuclear Reactors

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 02:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Wouldn't they have much less trouble to explain that scenario?

By the way, just a few minutes ago a new strong earthquake was announced, on the Nigata side.

by das monde on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 09:42:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

there was an explosion...but not at the reactor container.

My fear is that "the reactor container" to which they refer is the steel vessel immediately surrounding the reactor. Unless they can get their emergency cooling working to some approximation of design intent this vessel is reliably going to melt....

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 09:43:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Another reactor at Fukushima nuke plant loses cooling functions

Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Sunday another reactor of its quake-hit Fukushima nuclear power plants had lost its cooling functions, while at least 15 people at a nearby hospital were found to have been exposed to radioactivity.
The utility supplier notified the government early Sunday morning that the No. 3 reactor at the No. 1 Fukushima plant had lost the ability to cool the reactor core. The reactor is now in the process of releasing radioactive steam, according to top government spokesman Yukio Edano.
It was the sixth reactor overall at the Fukushima No. 1 and No. 2 plants to undergo cooling failure since the massive earthquake and ensuing tsunami struck Japan on Friday.

by das monde on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 at 08:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

In the previous thread, we discussed the failure of the emergency diesel generators that would have been needed for the cooling system to work properly, and more broadly active safety systems and their vulnerability. One news channel's news crawler now says that the emergency generators were damaged by the tsunami. If so, this is a safe design rather than maintenance issue; but I don't know if I should trust the source.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 03:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

I had seen various reports that the generators operated for an hour after the earthquake.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

Ive read that the next round of upgrades to international safety standards was due to cover flooding from earthquakes, but it was always something that had been considered a low probability.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 05:59:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

The probaility is usually something like 1 to the power of minus 9... until it is 1. :p

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 07:01:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Well

Note to self: don't build a nuclear reactor ~~buy a wooden house~~ on a coastal floodplain ~~near a nuclear reactor~~ on an island where they have a special word for 'a giant wave caused by earthquakes'.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 07:13:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

You mean 10 to the power of minus nine... otherwise it's always 1.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 07:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

Yes of course, seems I lost a zero there.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 07:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

what's a zero or nine among friends?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:09:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (4.00 / 3)

Heh. Years ago when ET had the big nuclear debates, I had a hard time getting across with an argument that risk/benefit assessments are based on the assumption that most risks of relevance are known enough to be quantified (f.e. here).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:54:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Seems to me the risks were known. Problem is that they were ignored.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 01:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

Or they gave their best-guess quantification ran the numbers and discovered using those figures gave them an answer they didn't like or want. So they jiggered the figures until they got the answer they wanted.

Happens all the time.

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 02:35:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

I have some first hand experience with that process. Fortunately it only involved some else's money -- which ended up being tied up much longer than "estimated".

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

At least the magnitude 9 earthquake, the 10 m tsunami, the combination of the two, and incompatible sockets for mobile generators were among the unforeseen risks.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:35:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

What I fail to comprehend is why they couldn't just hard-wire past the connectors. Torch some silver on the connection. It is not a Cat6 circuit.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Yep, it's as if people had no improvisation skills. Then again, we once had a similar problem that cost us half a day, and the makeshift solution was not something for occupational safety inspectors...

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 03:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

I read that frequences (50 and 60) were not compatible, as different standards are used in Japanese industries.

by das monde on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 03:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

Were the only portable generators available 60Hz US units? Does Japan not make diesel emergency generators?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 11:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

I have read elsewhere that Japan is divided into two regions with incompatible 50Hz and 60Hz standards.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 11:28:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (4.00 / 2)

Yes, it's in the TEPCO reports (which I can't access at the moment): 2:46 pm to 3:41 pm the generators worked. However, that doesn't exclude some unspecified damage to the generators as the cause for failure. Say, something was bent or there was oil loss and it took an hour for the bearings of the machines to jam or something.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Actually, both of us ignored something: the tsunami didn't hit at the same time as the earthquake...

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (4.00 / 3)

In Tsunami, Japan's Seawalls Were No Security - NYTimes.com

Peter Yanev, one of the world's best-known consultants on designing nuclear plants to withstand earthquakes, said the seawalls at the Japanese plants could not handle tsunami waves of the height that struck them. But the diesel generators were situated in a low spot on the assumption that the walls were high enough to protect against any likely tsunami.
That turned out to be a fatal miscalculation. The tsunami walls either should have been built higher, or the generators should have been place on higher ground to withstand potential flooding, he said.

As one who used to be in charge of installing emergency diesel generators in industrial plants and oil/gas rigs (that was long ago!), I can say emergency diesel generators are highly vulnerable. They must be located in safe places and well protected, and that includes the diesel fuel storage tanks and supply lines, the air intake system, the electric and/or compressed air starting devices, the batteries, the engine cooling system as well as the electric and electronic devices that are supposed to automatically start them and connect them to the pumps whenever there is a power shortage and to pilot them. So if they were flooded, there was no chance they could run for long.

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

In fairness to the Japanese, in the placement of generators, tsunamis aren't the only concern to take into account. There is the earthquake itself (generator atop a building that may collapse?), and there are typhoons.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Sure, but you can have a specific, earthquake-proof building for the emergency generators. Actually, it seems that few buildings did collapse following the earthquake. At least the nuclear power plants buildings did not.

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Not to mention potential Godzillas, Mothras, etc. I mean, who the heck did the disaster probability calculations, anyway???

by asdf on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

And they have to be regularly tested and maintained over the many, many years until they are needed.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

If failing generators are the actual problem... it looks like shutting down all reactors immediately was not the best strategy in this particular case. The reactors themselves withstood the earthquake fine apparently. From today's point of view, keeping a reactor half-running and pumping cooling to the others looks less risky. But surely, that would make the design and the decision protocol so much more complicated.

by das monde on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 12:19:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

On the oil rigs/plants, the rule was to run the emergency generators everyday for half an hour.

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 03:24:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 0)

I would think that the emergency generators must be run at least once a week for a long enough time for the engines to get up to full working temperature.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 11:23:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Japan disasters open thread (none / 1)

Wouldnt surprise me to find that in theory they have to have at least one of the emergency generators running at all time.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 12:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Japan disasters open thread | 315 comments (315 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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