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What does Obama mean saying this?
Right now, companies get tax breaks for moving jobs and profits overseas.

If you're a business that wants to outsource jobs, you shouldn't get a tax deduction for doing it.

He is implying that the IRS code has tax breaks specifically for outsourcing, no?

by das monde on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 09:11:04 PM EST
Yes. Tax breaks for looters.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 11:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't get what he's specifically referring to, though assume there's something in the code.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 26th, 2012 at 05:37:06 AM EST
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I cannot cite chapter and verse I don't think there is explicit language to the effect that, if you close down a company and send the jobs offshore you get a tax break, but that the existing regulations, as administered, routinely produce that result. With a 15% cap on capital gains taxes in the highest income brackets for positions held over one year it should be relatively easy for the organization providing the financing to insure that the books show the position as long term. Then there will be opaque and obliquely stated provisions inserted by lobbyists into thousand + page omnibus bills a day or two before a session ending vote that grant more giveaways.

One of the more breaks was the notorious Hummer tax credit. At the last opportunity the gross weight of business vehicles qualifying for business tax credits was raised to cover the Hummer. Therefore a businessman who owed $100,000 in taxes could instead just buy a Hummer and drive his tax payment around. Cool, hunh? My accountant explained that one to me. If the purchase price is en lieu of paying the money to the hated government who cares what the price or gas mileage is?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jan 26th, 2012 at 09:59:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by rootless2 on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 09:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he may be referring to the old situation discussed in this article.

The problem with the "Times" proposed solution is that it provides a fair amount of tax relief for US corporations that move jobs and production off-shore, but does less to encourage them to return jobs and production to the US. As I understand it, they could still manufacture goods in a country with ridiculously low labor costs, sell them to US consumers and pay a rather low tax rate (no more than 20%) on any profits.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Thu Jan 26th, 2012 at 10:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a classic misdirection used by Hedge Fund Democrats to con Democratic primary base electorate voters. It refers to some no-double-taxation provisions in the US corporate tax code, under which corporations supposedly get a tax break for outsourcing because they get taxed at a lower foreign rate instead of the high US rate. The common proposal is to replace the income exclusion with a tax credit instead, so that the corporation effectively pays the same rate no matter whether they outsource the jobs or not.

Only problem is that the effective US corporate tax rate is around 2.3%, so for most big corporations, a tax owed of the difference between foreign tax paid on the income and US tax paid would leave no US tax due.

Meanwhile, while repeatedly proposing this policy (from his primary campaign on), but somehow never getting it passed into law (which would spoil the shell game, since it could not then be used on the campaign trail), Obama has supported corporate wealth agreements with South Korea, Columbia and Panama, entrenching the corporate freedom to move wealth across national borders unfettered by any constraint in the interests of economic stability or in defense of individual liberty from corporate power.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 26th, 2012 at 11:24:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, they have proposed eliminating the foreign tax breaks - and actually HAVE eliminated some of them - consistently.

Under the US system of government, laws must be passed by the legislature.

by rootless2 on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 09:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks to the power of not being required to give magnitudes by a dictation taking press, they can kill a tax break worth very little to the companies receiving them, and say in a speech that they were able to kill a tax break for companies sending jobs overseas. The mainstream political reporters in the big papers will not say, "This sounds more impressive than it really is, because the actual impact of the change is very small." They will only say, "Rep. X (D) said X and Rep. Y (R) said Y", so a mostly cosmetic change that the R's agreed to because it was mostly cosmetic gets covered as if it actually meant something.

At an effective corporate income tax rate below 3% on average, foreign earned income exclusions can only be a significant factor in the limited number of cases where the US corporation would find itself actually having to pay something like the headline US corporate income tax rate.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 10:27:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't you need some data for that argument?
by rootless2 on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 11:23:30 AM EST
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My data for the effective tax rate was the Obama administration.

The tax haven part of the tax dodge has nothing to do with "outsourcing US jobs overseas". Its simply a financial manipulation where the US company establishes a subsidiary in a tax haven. The tax haven subsidiary raises money. The US corporation borrows that money from its own subsidiary. It then pays interest to the tax haven subsidiary on the loan, which is a pre-tax expense, and the income received by the tax haven subsidiary at or close to tax free.

Sure its a tax dodge, but it is the same tax dodge whether the project that is financed is located in the US or overseas. Indeed, if you closed the financial manipulation tax haven loophole, but left the credit in place for a place where the company engage in substantial value added, that's when the tax credit on the activity taking place overseas would begin to have a substantial differential impact.

And the fiscal impact of the changes proposed again this year is supposed to be $190b over ten years.

US corporate tax receipts have dropped from 4% of GDP in the 60's to under 2.5% of GDP in this last decade. $19b/year is only around 0.1% to 0.2% of a $14T~$19T economy.

Meanwhile, while the policy of "cutting tax credits for US companies that ship American jobs overseas" is in the stump speech, with zero chance of being supported by the 60 Senator supermajority required under the present gross abuse of the filibuster, three more aggressively neoliberal "free trade" agreements for unfettered corporate wealth transfers across national borders have been passed into law with the President actively lobbying for them.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 01:02:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No the key dodge is the non-taxable status of non-repatriated profits.
by rootless2 on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 02:30:20 PM EST
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In fact, your argument is 100% wrong. For example, Google's single digit tax rate is entirely due to use of the overseas tax rate exclusions and an elaborate scheme for funneling money through jurisdictions with loopholes. The Netherlands exclusion of tax on earnings from overseas royalties is a huge draw for US companies and it can be connected to Irish and West Indies holding companies to have significant effect.
by rootless2 on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 11:27:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the location of a holding company has very little connection with the location of employment.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 01:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Google Ireland has 2000 employees. But they are a low employee to revenue business. Consider Apple with hundreds of thousands of contract employees in China. The ability to indefinitely delay taxes on non-repatriated funds and the ability to import tax credits for those funds create a strong incentive

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-03-20-corporate-tax-offshoring_N.htm

by rootless2 on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 02:29:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So here's how google does it

Sell IP to Holland co.
Locate world operations in Irish Co.
Bermuda co owns Holland co and provides "management" to Irish co.

Money comes into Irish co. Some goes to bermuda tax free.
Royalty payments go to Netherlands which exempts royalty income from taxation. Then money goes to holding co. in Bermuda.

3% tax rate!

by rootless2 on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 11:43:06 AM EST
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So the tax breaks that Obama references are not  tax breaks directly declared, but rather tax breaks by default or omission. Right?
by das monde on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 10:41:23 AM EST
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I'm not sure what you are asking,but the tax code for example specifically permits indefinite delay of tax on non-repatriated off-shore profits.
by rootless2 on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 11:35:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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