The European Tribune is a forum for thoughtful dialogue of European and international issues. You are invited to post comments and your own articles.
Please REGISTER to post.
Jerome noted recently that a possible solution to the current impasse over possible ECB actions would be for the French to say the Germans were acting like Nazis and they would blink - or not. Perhaps that was tongue in cheek, but it is largely the current French government that is giving Germany cover for its current policies.
As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
Are we or they to expect that the events of the '30s were so painful that, even in similar economic circumstances today, they could never be repeated, even in small part?
Of course not. And I didn't say that. However, you would have to define "repeated" very carefully. And, having done so, you might find the conclusion was that the parallel was too schematic to fit the real complexities of historical situations.
If the factors that led to those events have indeed been dealt with then it should be possible to discuss those events rationally.
If you are ready to write the historical treatise that would adequately cover the ground you propose, I'd be eager to see it. But just making a quick cross-reference between German citizens today and those of the 1930s is not adequate. And the fact that over-reaction to it thinly disguises denial (of today's situation), does not make it so.
Oh, and pace Colman above, and what I feel is the subtext of your comment, I am not laying down rules or proposing censorship. It has been said again and again here that editors are members of the community who are perfectly within their rights in expressing their opinion. That is what I'm doing (and presumably you and Colman too). The limits to discourse on ET (beyond certain obscure open thread traditions) are explained here and here.
The problem is that every damn time we get critical of a specific government (despite cursing the other fuckwit leaders at the same time) the nationalist hackles rise and we get completely irrational defences. The English and Americans when we talk about Anglo disease or Iraq (well, not so much Iraq), the French when we point out how bloody racist mainstream right discourse is and that the left are providing cover for them, the Germans when we point out that their government is batshit insane and has no regard for the consequences of their actions beyond the short term political calculus, the Russians when we're mean about poor little Putin, and so on and so forth.
The problem with analogies to the events of the early to mid 20th C is that it's lovely cover for nationalist outrage. "Oooooh, you said Nazi!" It's like a fucking pantomime.
However, it's still extremely relevant, both psychologically - those events inform a lot of national myths, not least the Greek - and analytically. We, as a continent, are wandering along the edge of a deep dark valley again, for much the same reasons and exhibiting a lot of the same philosophies.
Do I expect a rise of the Nazis? No, don't be silly. However, among the lessons of that period is that is very easy for conceited arrogant fools to enable some very dangerous people to gain power. Wrecking peoples lives and discrediting democracy and shaming their group is extremely dangerous and it's pretty clear that the fuck wits in Germany and the rest of the capitals don't clearly understand this. The outstanding demonstration of how dangerous it is is the rise of Hitler and his band of maniacs. They managed to take over a pretty modern industrialised country because it had been economically ruined by idiots, democracy had been discredited and undermined and because the arrogant fools thought they could control their little monster. We paid a hell of a price to learn that lesson last time. How much will we pay this time, since we've not only forgotten history but can't remember it in order to protect civility?
It's not the same dark valley, and who knows what's at the bottom of it?
It's not the same dark valley, and who knows what's at the bottom of it?
Right. So diary.
I don't know about that Colman, I know quite a few French people here who will defend your claim, not the mainstream right discourse.
Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
In Europe, where I've also lived, it struck me as absurd (being an American) that so much stock is placed in ethnic DNA.
The prejudices on either continent are different. People of learning find all forms of racism repugnant, so that any mention of the genetic inferiority of African descendants or Native/Aborigines, etc., would be immediately countered.
Yet, even in polite and learned company in Europe, I find an incredible ease in discussing ethnic differences within Europe. I've always felt uneasy with that ease. It is very common. In the USA, you rarely hear racial insults on the street, but I heard ethnic insults all over Europe. In newspaper columns, for instance, I've often heard the distinction between Ancient Greeks and contemporary ones with columnists pointing out that the Classical Greek bloodline has been so mongrelized that we now have a lesser strain. I shake my head in amusement when I read such things.
I'm not trying to downplay American racism since I think its unspoken coerciveness is still easily the more virulent when compared to Euro prejudices.
In the USA, you rarely hear racial insults on the street
Spontaneous politeness? Or the fact that a relatively high proportion of passers-by might be armed?
it's the old joke : what do you call an eight-foot African with a spear?
It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II
Consider, there is a great deal of defensive energy spent battling the racist label. Most racists absolutely abhor being branded racist. Only a few willingly claim it with pride. I think that's the reason racism in the USA is practiced, not enunciated.
I've lived in inner city America from the time I was 4 on except for 3 years in Europe in my 20s.
Recently, I had dinner with a Korean (woman) and African-American (man) at an Italian restaurant, and the waiter was from NYC by way of the Dominican Rep. The waiter launched into a circus of racial and ethnic stereotypes that had absolutely no one at the table unnerved. It struck me as the kind of easy labeling that an immigrant from the Caribbean to Brooklyn to Buffalo, NY could get away with, the sort of thing I often experienced in Europe. The lack of offense taken came from the power relations between the 4 of us at that table. This is precisely why those who deal in stereotypes have to be aware of the context in which they speak.
by aquilon - Mar 10 31 comments
by epochepoque - Mar 7 11 comments
by Cyrille - Mar 8 1 comment
by afew - Mar 7 36 comments
by DoDo - Mar 10 15 comments
by ARGeezer - Mar 10 6 comments
by marco - Mar 3 43 comments
by maracatu - Feb 25 13 comments
by gmoke - Mar 10
by ARGeezer - Mar 106 comments
by aquilon - Mar 1031 comments
by DoDo - Mar 1015 comments
by Cyrille - Mar 81 comment
by epochepoque - Mar 711 comments
by afew - Mar 736 comments
by Oui - Mar 560 comments
by Oui - Mar 413 comments
by marco - Mar 343 comments
by vbo - Mar 124 comments
by Oui - Mar 11 comment
by Oui - Mar 13 comments
by Metatone - Feb 287 comments
by vbo - Feb 27110 comments
by gmoke - Feb 263 comments
by vbo - Feb 25102 comments
by maracatu - Feb 2513 comments
by Oui - Feb 2432 comments
by Oui - Feb 2214 comments