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You're glossing over the foreclosure fraud scandal. The subprime crisis is peanuts compared to that, in my opinion.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2012 at 05:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the Obama Administration is neck deep just now, attempting, apparently with some success, to draw into their proposed bank friendly settlement of the suit and investigation brought by multiple state attorneys general the NY State AG, Schneiderman. The settlement would limit the liability of banks without bringing significant reform or a fine commensurate with even a significant fraction of the damage they have inflicted on the public and on the state and local governments. This is en leiu of prosecution of criminal behavior - give 'em a get out of jail free card, virtually, and let the victims go pound sand.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2012 at 11:12:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a great example of what is wrong with "progressive" America.

(1) there has never been an actual settlement - just years of uninformed speculation - you have no idea whether it is bank friendly or not, just a naive reliance on what people with agendas leak.

(2) the decision is not up to the Federal government alone, the state AGs are independent agents

(3) People who actually know something about litigation understand why settling for sub-optimal terms is often a good idea. Particularly when we have the right wing judiciary to consider: the DOJ would have to be fucking stupid not to worry about losing.

(4)nobody who is not participating in the negotiations has any idea about what is on the table and only the various representatives know the difference between stated position and actual position. This is a common "progressive" mistake: staring at the poker table and without looking at the cards panicking about what faces people make.

So you have ZERO IDEA what the Obama administration is doing. You are just making use of circular reasoning to agree with yourself.

by rootless2 on Sat Feb 4th, 2012 at 11:30:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And, once again, no one should be complaining about the actions/lack of actions of the Obama Administration because no one knows anything.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2012 at 03:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Close: people should bother to understand the process before complaining.
by rootless2 on Sat Feb 4th, 2012 at 04:02:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not necessary to understand all of the intricacies to see that a system is badly flawed and in need of reform, nor that existing leaders are not even giving the appearance of trying, nor to have read every wonkish book available on the political process. Making that assertion is either just being supercilious or just trying to stifle criticism and defend the status quo. I fail to see how that is progressive.  Close.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2012 at 01:30:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, but understanding that the AGs are not under the direction of the Obama administration and are responsible for state laws, not Federal laws, or that the courts are a dangerously corporate tilted venue, or that negotiators do not always tip all their cards, is not "wonkish". If you want to critique the process, you have to understand the process.
 
by rootless2 on Sun Feb 5th, 2012 at 09:42:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I am quite acutely aware of the things you listed.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2012 at 12:31:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great so: "the Obama Administration is neck deep just now, attempting, apparently with some success, to draw into their proposed bank friendly settlement of the suit and investigation brought by multiple state attorneys general the NY State AG, Schneiderman"

is based on what? You are party to the negotiating strategy of the DOJ team? You have the ability to evaluate the terms of a settlement that nobody has seen as "bank friendly" based on what? You know that, despite all indications, DOJ wants to be able to end state investigations via the settlement - how exactly?

I bet you don't know anything at all, but are just using the standard progressive circular logic.

by rootless2 on Sun Feb 5th, 2012 at 03:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh please. Most of the foreclosure problem is due to people who borrowed too much money to speculate in a boom.
by rootless2 on Sat Feb 4th, 2012 at 11:22:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A simplistic, blame the victims gloss! Most of the damage was done to people who needed to buy a house during the bubble which was blown by Wall Street fraudsters who commissioned and financed mortgage originators and who financed the process with cheap money from "Bubbles" Greenspan. They were left underwater when prices dropped and then defaulted when one or more family members lost their jobs. But the tip of the spear was the sub-prime, adjustable rate and alternate A loans which were pushed by the Wall Street commissioned mortgage originators even for people who qualified for FHA and other standard loans. Greenspan is on record telling a room full of real estate and mortgage originators that "financial innovation" had a lot of room left to keep the expansion going. You gloss over the massive differential in market knowledge between the originators and the borrowers as well as the incentives for originators to saddle borrowers with expensive and risky loans, even when they could have qualified for better terms.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2012 at 11:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course there was a lot of unsavory lending and duplicitous terms. But the proximate reason the larger economy is stalled is that the consumer buying and housing demand fueled by unsustainable pyramid scheme debt came to an end. The crappy paperwork handling of mortgage agents has little to do with it.
by rootless2 on Sat Feb 4th, 2012 at 12:24:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a wave of foreclosures and then there is foreclosure fraud (e.g., foreclosing on people who never borrowed to buy their home, forging documents, stacking courts...).

I'm talking about the latter, and you misdirect with the former.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2012 at 10:58:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've a feeling that excessive fees may be even more of a problem, but I'm not sure if we'll ever know.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2012 at 11:16:40 AM EST
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There are a lot of systemic problems. But the gist of rootless' position is that since the rot is systemic, with Obama in the White House we have the best POTUS we can reasonably expect to have, which seems like a strangely Panglossian view. You think this is bad, but we live in the best of all possible worlds!

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2012 at 11:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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