French Presidential election - first round open thread | 113 comments (113 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Why is Joly missing form Jerome's left-right spectrum?

And we have center right (Bayrou), far right (Sarkozy) and extreme right (Le Pen) on one side and center left (Hollande), far left (Mélenchon) and extreme left (Poutou and Artaud) on the other

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 09:45:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

because I did not bother to mention her (none / 0)

but she would be in the center left bit with Hollande.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 09:47:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because I did not bother to mention her (none / 0)

Is she going to poll lower than Poutou and Artaud?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 09:56:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

probably not (none / 1)

but she only adds a small % to an existing group, whereas the other two are a conceptually distinct group.

My point was that Melenchon was, for once, not seen as as extremist as Le Pen by a Serious publication, which I found noteworthy.

You may consider that my neglecting to mention Joly is noteworthy in that context, or you may consider that she was irrelevant to the point I was making.

Can we drop it now?

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 10:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No we can't (none / 0)

I'm curious as to your unwillingness to distinguish EELV from the PS as political tendencies.

Do you genuinely believe that the PS are all ecologists now?

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 10:20:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No we can't (none / 0)

Where does this leave your Nobody in France has any difficulty in situating EELV on a left-right scale, then?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 10:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No we can't (4.00 / 2)

That EELV is on the left, but that all the PS isn't ecologically minded. Same, btw, for a good many Melenchon supporters, and the Trots too.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 10:37:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No we can't (none / 1)

You are assuming that ecologists are really ecologists.

My experience with a few (do not confuse a few with a full blown generalization, please) "ecologists" of Latin persuasion is that they are the worse ecologists possible: it is NIBMY in full force. Implicit support for sources of energy that are dirty ELSEWHERE.

Surely there are many socialists that probably not ecologists, but then again, so are many ecologists.

In that sense, the (British) Green party seems slightly more at tone with what one expects from a Green party (with an added bonus of being clearly on the left).

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 10:38:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No we can't (4.00 / 3)

This is not the case with EELV/Les Verts, and never has been. I hope a genuine Green movement can emerge in the Mediterranean countries, and that the brand has not been irremediably damaged.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No we can't (4.00 / 2)

The ones I am thinking about are easy to spot. Here is a potential recipe:

Lets take the subject of energy

NYMBY has a very strong cause against some form on indigenous electricity production. Say inshore wind in the UK or dams in Portugal. Against train expansion in the UK also.
NYMBY has a lifestyle that requires much more energy than produced locally or in civilized/ecological way elsewhere (think imports from dictatorships, Saudi Arabia, delta of the Niger, ...)
NYMBY will only show concern about distant landscapes/people when points 1 and 2 are noticed. Concern is mostly hypocritical and reactive. Exceptions for token cases (Amazon).

Talking about numbers and energy/environment economics is normally anathema with these people. Not much into comparing their own footprint with energy needs.

Difficult concept to grasp is also that other people far way might have the same right to spend natural resources (i.e. own lifestyle is totally unsustainable goes unseen).

A good example of this (in the UK) seems to be Paul Kingsnorth. A primitivist that seems to see no problem in hoping on a plane to see lost wildlife in the other side of the planet (done it several times). Simultaneously opposes all (or almost) forms of local energy production.

An (opposite) example of a thoughtful green would be George Monbiot (irrespective of the nuclear issue - not the point here): Somebody that understands (i) that people do not want to go back to caves, (ii) brown people elsewhere have the same right to natural resources and (iii) does a clear personal effort/example to spend less natural resources.

I generally have no patience for so called greens that have an industrial lifestyle (and seem to like it) and are not ready to engage in a conversation about the economics of energy production. Unfortunately many "greens" that I know fall on this category (OTOH, here the UK has a good amount of very reasonable green people)

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 01:59:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No we can't (none / 0)

But I have no idea who are those nimby-greens you are talking about. Please note, this is a thread about French elections, so this sort of non-specific stuff looks a bit like a smear. Such people don't exist within EELV, if they try to join they don't last five minutes.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 02:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No we can't (none / 0)

I strayed away from the issue. Not my intention.

Especially because there are general comments that are appropriate here:

The green parties are completely out of their time (I consider myself to be green, note well). Cosmopolitan parties are not going far.

This is the time of inward-looking politics. This is the time of Le Pens, Melechons &etc. This is not a time for The Greens, this a time for GUE/NGL. For sovereignty parties.

Of course, there is nothing that forces a green party to be cosmopolitan (staunch localism is very green), but it is in their DNA.

The cosmopolitan greens had their time (as well as the europhiles, globalists, free traders, ...).

Please do not confuse what I like with what I see. But someone with a login of eurogreen will be a lot displeased in the next decade or so. So will I, by the way.

by cagatacos on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 03:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

EELV does very well in regional and in European elections, and poorly in national elections. This indicates a very sophisticated, but largely unconscious, understanding of where we are at, on the part of electors : they get the cosmopolitan/localist DNA. I don't expect this pattern to change much in coming electoral cycles. The current loss of relevance of Green parties in Europe is due to the retrograde re-nationalization of politics in general, rather than disaffection on the part of voters.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 03:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (4.00 / 2)

The current loss of relevance of Green parties in Europe also has to do with their willingness to play junior coalition partner to neoliberal parties and adopt neoliberal economic slogans.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 04:18:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

Odd how the voters don't seem to agree.

by rootless2 on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 08:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

You been looking at the German Greens lately?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 01:43:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

Depends. If your lately starts half a year ago, you are right. One year ago they probably had their best election results ever. And the party that is the new thing in Germany is the pirates party - not really a party focused on economic or at least not classical economic themes.

by IM on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 02:01:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

and we're watching the Pirates in 'Schland set the record for speed of self-destruction.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 02:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (4.00 / 2)

Surely the record is held by Yair Lapid? The son of Yosef Lapid (leader of a previous failed reform party), he is a television star who was supposed to be the new hope for the "left" in Israel. He seems to have collapsed even before the elections. Among other things, he was accepted to Bar-Ilan (the religious university - and he's supposed to be the anti-religious candidate....) for the Master's program, without ever having done a BA (even Googleburg didn't do that) and tried to position himself in the "centre", between Likud and Kadima.....

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 02:45:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

It looks quite like self-destruction. On the other hand they have won two state elections and are still on course to win two more in May. So all their antics doesn't seem to disturb the voters as of now.

by IM on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 02:55:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

If your lately starts half a year ago, you are right. One year ago they probably had their best election results ever.

But that is, in fact, my point: They were not in the Grand Coalition, and benefited greatly from it. Whereas their electoral performance was steadily deteriorating while they were in the Schröder government. Just like the SPD was punished for its grand coalition (a fact which played a major part in the Green gains).

(And of course this is just electoral results - in terms of policy rather than horse-race, coalitioning to the right is an even greater mistake.)

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 02:20:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (4.00 / 3)

They were not in the Grand Coalition, and benefited greatly from it. Whereas their electoral performance was steadily deteriorating while they were in the Schröder government.

Neither of these two claims is true, or at least real trends were more complex.

The biggest drop for the Greens was before getting into government, and that due to internal conflict (over calling for 5-DM-a-litre petrol prices): from highs of 12% to a 1998 election result of 6.7%.
Through most of Schröder's first term (that's during the Kosovo participation and before Agenda 2010 and Harz IV), the Greens struggled, but started to rise towards the end and significantly improved their result in the 2002 elections to 8.6%.
Throughout Schröder's second term, the Greens polled higher than their 2002 election result and did well in regional elections. They fell down in the last weeks of the 2005 election campaign (ending up at 8.1%), due to a last-minute SPD surge to prevent a CDU-FDP government.
During the Grand Coalition era, all the hype was about the Left Party. The numbers for the Greens fluctuated, and even with gains to 10.7%, they stayed smallest parliamentary party as the Left Party and the FDP gained more.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 03:31:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

I do not see any examples of a militant (even mildly) populist left party breaking 15% in any OECD state - for 20 years.

by rootless2 on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 08:02:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

And how did that work out, again?

But of course the peak-to-trough part of the life cycle of a centrist party is an outlier and the fault of the splitters on the left, just like the peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier and the fault of the immigrants.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Apr 24th, 2012 at 02:07:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 1)

I'm assuming "populist" means something like true to its principles.

Where do you count Iceland's Left-Green Movement? They got 21.7% last time (2009) and are in government.
What about the Socialist Party in the Netherlands? They won 16.6% at the 2006 elections.
What about the Left Party in Germany? Although not nationally, they exceeded 15% in state elections.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Apr 24th, 2012 at 10:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depends on the elections. (none / 0)

BTW, in the latest Dutch poll, the Socialists are almost level with Labour (26 seats which should be around 17% of the vote), while Wilders's PVV is dropping down. (If only the main government party VVD would drop down, too.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Apr 24th, 2012 at 10:34:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

oh jeez (4.00 / 3)

I said I'd count the greens as center-left, not that they were identical to the PS.

Maybe that "center left" category can be discussed, but given that Eva Joly herself considered joining Bayrou's Modem, that Daniel Cohn-Bendit is definitely centrist on a number of economic topics, and the the party has entered into a major deal with the PS to have common candidates at the elections, and possibly to join the government, it's not an altogether crazy characterization.

Again, this does not say anything about the greenness of the PS, just that the Greens are certainly considering being a party in government, which makes them, if not more centrist, at least somewhat pragmatist.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 11:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Look around Europe. (none / 1)

Coalition governments are the norm. This doesn't seem to result in government parties being ideologically indistinguishable.

The anomalous mode of election of the French parliament certainly means that the PS has the power of veto over candidates nominated by its partners, which has an unfortunate normalizing effect.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh jeez (none / 0)

On the offchance you're being serious, allow me to inform you that 90% of members of EELV, including its elected representatives, are to the left of DCB. Probably a majprity are within the same range on a left-right axis as their counterparts in the PS, but heavily weighted to the left hand end.

But I'm pretty sure you already know this, if you think about it a bit.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 01:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh jeez (none / 0)

I did not say I was right, just that it was not crazy (to put the greens in "center left"). If you prefer to say that the Greens are in the far left group, I can respect that.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 01:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a clue (none / 1)

Because she is an afterthought in this election.

That leads to a better question: why is she such a non-entity in this election? She was well-known even before she entered politics, so why doesn't she has the same kind of impact on the center-left as Bayrou on the center-right?

by IM on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 11:32:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a clue (none / 1)

It's been suggested that:

EELV will have a hard time because Joly is not an obvious candidate, and because the Verts have decided to throw the presidential in return for legislative seats

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 11:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a clue (4.00 / 2)

Yep, the leadership of les Verts negotiated legislative constituencies and government participation with Hollande just as Eva Joly began her campaign. She was then hogtied -- couldn't develop her own programme (since the programme had been defined elsewhere, without her). She was hung out to dry.

This boils down to a choice by les Verts not to fight the presidential, in favour of other aims.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a clue (none / 0)

Yes, I vaguely remember something like this.
But if her own party has forgotten , if not forsaken her, the rest of the world can't be much blamed for forgetting her too...

by IM on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a clue (none / 0)

No blame was intended in my comment.

It has often been reported that she would throw in the towel, but she went through with it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 01:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's a clue (none / 0)

This reminds me: our constituency has an outgoing Green MP, Anny Poursinoff, who defeated the incumbent UMP in a special election two years ago, in July 2010.

She will be running for re-election with support from the PS as part of their agreement with the Greens.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The presidential election (4.00 / 2)

is not the Greens' cup of tea. I'm sure Die Grunen would have similar difficulties. We're against it on principle.

Dominique Voynet got 3% last time, and nobody called her campaign disastrous. The maximum was Mamère's 5% in 2002, and we took flak for Jospin's failure. It's really a no-win election for us, and I'm receptive to DCB's idea of not running a candidate at all.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Sun Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

French Presidential election - first round open thread | 113 comments (113 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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