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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:03:02 PM EST
Belgrade relocates Roma to make way for street | News | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

Authorities have started removing about 250 Roma families from an informal city outside the Serbian capital. Rights groups have called the evictions human rights violations.

The city of Belgrade started removing nearly 1,000 Roma from a settlement of tin and wood huts outside the capital, drawing sharp criticism from Amnesty International and other rights groups.

The city planned to move the Roma families to four settlements of metal container homes outside Belgrade. Amnesty said the decision to move the settlement's inhabitants from an area where it wants to build a street represented an eviction and a "blatant" violation of human rights.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
WTF they are talking about? I am sick and tired of those "human right defenders" in Serbia. Have you ever seen their (these specific Roma people)  "houses"? It's a disaster how they live in it. These "metal containers" are Beverly Hills comparing to their original houses. In containers they have power, water and bathrooms and all they need for normal living and free public transport...What else do "human right defenders" want for them? Let's put them on Dedinje with all ambassadors as neighbours! C'mon.
Here in Australia they put immigrants in the same "containers"...I remember when immigrants from Kosovo came here and Howard put them in these containers. They protested loudly...Howard was puzzled...What did they expect? To put them in Sydney's mansions?
Really...this is too much. I would like to know where exactly Germans and French and Brits put them?


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 09:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We had a bellyfull c/o the Dale Farm evictions. They built permanent settlements on designated farmland, which is illegal, and when they were offered social housing, they refused it saying they were "travellers" who couldn't survive in permanent settlements.

Duh ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 02:28:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is that they are not moved out of concern for their welfare, but because they're in the way of road building. And presumably against their will and/or without consultation.

As for "metal 'container homes'" (not "'metal container' homes"), we're presumably talking about Portacabins which are generally considered to be substandard for housing purposes.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 02:33:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well bear in mind that these people (no matter who they are) have "built" their homes ILEGALY on a land that does not belong to them. Let me tell you what would happen to me if I put JUST tent on government's land (or private land) here in Brisbane. I would end up in jail. What do you think Belgrade government should do? Cancel building that road? Why? Just because they are Roma people? I don't think so. Honestly (and I am not talking about all Roma people but only those who live in these kind of " dwellings" on government's land)even during socialism some of them has been given permanent state housing (apartments) and they didn't seem to care about it. Now as I hear they get those cabins that are much much better then where they used to live and they are not happy. Also bear in mind that probably tens of thousands of working people in Belgrade (and Serbia) do not have adequate ( or any ) accommodation and are forced to rent substandard housing or more than one generation have to live in crowded apartments. And who bloody hell cares about them? Where are human rights organisations to mention them?
When France has a problem with Roma people they simply deport them to where they came from. I hear now a lot of them are coming to Serbia ( even if they are not citizens) because Serbia is forced by Europe now to take care of them (do not know if this is truth). How about forcing for example Hungary not to allow right extremist to beat and kill them randomly?
I am not saying they are not discriminated in Serbia but this is a much broader issue to talk about...I strongly believe that Belgrade government is not doing anything wrong by moving them elsewhere and giving them those cabins. Here is one photo:

 

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 05:14:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now as I hear they get those cabins that are much much better then where they used to live and they are not happy.

Not surprisingly, because the quality of the dwelling is not the issue here. The issue is that they want to live how they want to live. Your (or my) idea of quality of life has nothing to do with their motivations.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 05:20:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh, well I WANT to live in Central Park New York...how about that? Or if I make my "dwelling" next to Opera house in Sydney just because I want to...Just because they are Roma they shouldn't have any more rights than ordinary citizens in any country. I admire positive policies to help them get educated or employed or even helping them with state housing. I kind of hate that "positive discrimination" as they call it here or in New Zealand...so they (Aborigines here and Maoris in NZ) have extra rights that other citizens do not have. OK maybe some of them need some "wind beneath their wings" to fly but in my opinion it is getting to far. On the other hand I totally oppose "state intervention" that Howard put in place here in Australia and is still going on (too much control makes them feel even less worthy). There must be something else that may help...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 05:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You admire "education" that makes Roma give up their own traditions in favour of the majority's. Well, there is such a thing as minority rights. Accepting diversity makes societies richer. Besides, if one group of people can be forced to give in to a prescribed culture, next thing is we all can be forced. Ever thought of it?
by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:41:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds good when you say it like this but...if they do not educate themselves (which quite a few of them seem not to be interested in) they can't expect more then what they have now... See Europe is not USA or Canada or Australia so that some groups can live in wildness ...it is very much populated. If whoever wants to live this kind of life in Europe , he can't do it in the middle of the city...and affect others.
As for Roma culture I can tell you Serbs adore their music and it's very popular in a lot of Belgrade's restaurants.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The picturesque is okay then. How very generous. Apparently my concept of culture is wider than yours though.

The Roma perhaps can't have their settlement in the exact spot where the road was to be built, but then their settlement ought to be relocated, not eliminated. I don't see any reason why cities should be too densely populated to allow some alternative forms of living. Anything "affects others". It just works both ways.

by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK would you like to have anything like this next to your house/apartment?
Or better ...how would you like your child to live like this?

Or is it at least healthier for those kids to live in these cabins



Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The extreme poverty of this settlement doesn't mean that the form of settlement is wrong. And it doesn't mean that the people of the settlement have no right to decide how they want to live.
by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:50:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry.

That settlement is wrong and no their right to decide how they want to live cannot be absolute.

Do you really want me to give you a million examples of how things work in a society of laws?

by Euroliberal on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not saying their right is absolute, I am rejecting the notion that the way of living of the non-Roma majority is absolute. The Roma have the right to have their ways respected. Has anyone asked the inhabitants of this settlement what they want instead of ordering them around?

And yes, of course I want you to give a million examples. Thanks for the offer. I am waiting.

by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 12:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No problem.
Firstly, I couldn't agree more that the Roma should have their ways respected.
Secondly, I admit I can't answer your question whether they were consulted or not. I do agree that to a reasonable degree that would have the optimal strategy for this and all similar situations.

What I object to is elevating any situation to extreme racial or social prejudice when we all know that the State practices equally abusive actions against ordinary people without discrimination.

If I make it "my way of life" to occupy any public or private space, in many cases, my eviction by authorities can be construed as cruel and heavy-handed but my claim that my ways should not be violated does not seem right.

I am a smoker. Smoking is not a religion or cultural trait. Hence, my state is persecuting me in number of ways supposedly to protect the whole of society that I am a member of. What gives? Are my human rights violated? You sure bet that my wife of life is not the same every time I leave my house.

My wife likes animals as pets. The last condo we lived at obliged her to give the dog away just because a simple majority of the tenants thought so. She was heart-broken.

Now that I am in a house with a yard, I would have liked to keep and raise animals namely chickens and pigs. No can do says the city counsil. A public health hazard.

If my son is in the car, he has to be seated in a higly regulated seat all buckled-up or I run the risk of being accused of negligence and endangerment.
So, if I can't plead freedom to live "my way" why shouldn't the state intervene and look after the welfare of the kids in the photos Vbo provided?
Why is it so readily labeled racism and persecution?

All I am saying is rationality and some balance won't harm anyone.

by Euroliberal on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 01:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's not the same as the discrimination Roma have to live with. You are complaining of property owners' limiting your personal choices, and of the state limiting your personal choices. The choices of Roma smokers, pet owners, parents are limited in the same way, of course. It's not the same as forcing a minority to give up the ways of their minority. Many (perhaps most, nobody knows for sure) Roma live like you and me, by the way: in a flat, with a profession and job like everybody else. As a rule they try to keep secret that they are Roma, because they would immediately face prejudice for what they are. There is more than personal freedom, there is freedom of ethnic groups too.

Roma have the right to decide on their own if they want to travel or not and if they want to live in a Roma community or not. Their risk of poverty is higher than that of other ethnicities and this is a result of discrimination, not the source of it. The poverty of the settlement (and as a result the hygienic circumstances in which the children live) are not chosen by the inhabitants. The inhabitants find these circumstances better than the alternatives that have been offered to them. The state has the duty to make sure that the Roma have homes that are acceptable to them (not to the majority, to them).

by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 02:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Katrin I am sorry to say but you don't know what you are talking about. It's so easy to be "human rights defender" for Roma people if you simplify things like you do. I wish it's so simple.
Yes Roma people are discriminated in many ways EVERYWHERE. This topic is so broad that we can talk about it until cows come home. But here we are talking about homeless, unemployed very poor people that live with their families ( kids) in less then decent and very unhealthy circumstances. They were left to live "their way" in Serbia for ages but right now Europe specifically asks Serbian government to do something about it. Damn if you help them, damn if you don't.
These specific people are protesting and are asking Serbian government to "solve their accommodation problems" which in Serbia means to give away to them proper apartments. Now you need to know that in Serbia there is no such a thing as "public / state housing" in a way Europe/Germany etc. has it. In Serbia most of the real estate (except some private houses and apartments) was state/communally owned. People did not pay the rent to the state/communal owner. They payed some small sums for communal services like heating, waste, water etc. Most of the people actually used to get those apartments trough their companies (usually after about 10 years of working). This lasted for about 50 years. There were some "social/solidarity apartments" that municipalities mostly used to give away to very poor people...but not many of those.
Milosevic actually sold practically all of state/ state companies owned real estate to the people. He started with realistic prices but not many people were able to buy...then in the end he sold most of them for about 200 DM /Euros each. It was a time of war and people struggled to pay even that...but most of them managed. So right now there is no such a thing as state/company owned apartments to be given away. Now people can get loans from their companies with better interest rate then they can get at the bank (only if their company has money).
These people are not working. So now they actually ask for government/municipality to give away accommodation/solidarity housing in a way that they used to give them during socialism. One simple difference here is that once you get these apartments you are not in "tenant" situation like you are in western countries. You do not pay rent (no matter how small) and you practically cannot be evicted. It is considered YOUR apartment. You can even buy it from state in some circumstances. Oh you cannot imagine how many poor Serbs and other nationalities in Serbia would like to come to this situation. I was reading comments elsewhere and some of them say: "So I just need to go and build those same houses under the bridge and ask for the government to solve my accommodation problem?"
Trouble is that even when they are given those apartments they do not want to live there. In some extreme cases they used to sell everything that could be sold (doors, water tanks, toilets, kitchens, even flooring and windows...) and just abandon it.
Now I am not saying that all Roma people live like this. Of course probably most of them are living in similar apartments that you and I may live. I agree that we should not judge them by this minority that lives the way we are talking about here.
Now tell me what exactly would you like Belgrade government to do in this case?


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you seem to be shifting your argument to something like a country that has fucked up its housing problems needn't look after minority rights and human rights.  

Here is a bit of background as to the situation of Roma in Serbia
:

Roma face discrimination and exclusion in all spheres of life. Unemployment is particularly high among the Roma, and those who are employed are usually in low paid positions. Poverty is widespread and many people do not have access to such necessities as electricity or even clean water. Conditions are particularly appalling in informal settlements; these are makeshift temporary settlements populated mainly by Roma displaced from Kosovo or forcibly returned from abroad. In 2006, the Belgrade city government abandoned plans to build housing for Roma in the city following nearby residents' demonstrations

by Katrin on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 04:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a waste of time to continue this discussion with you. All you can hear is your self...Did you read anything I wrote on this topic? Sorry. The end.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 10:32:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, in case you think Belgrade is the only European city with such issues... What to do with Cañada Real? (6 FEB 2012)
Madrid City Hall wants to bulldoze part of Europe's biggest shanty town

"In Cañada Real lives a large part of the population of Madrid in a permanent manner, which has rights but also responsibilities. The illegal status of the vast majority of the plots of land is a fundamental aspect, but it must not be the only one," reads a Madrid City Hall social report on the largest unauthorized settlement in Europe. The document, to which EL PAÍS has had access, is the first step toward a solution to the situation, which carries significant social and logistical problems. "The expulsion of this populace and the restoration of the zone to its original state will not solve the problem, as it will simply move elsewhere and leave many of its inhabitants in a worse situation," the report sums up. But neither can all of the residents be relocated, ostensibly to council-owned properties, or compensated because such action would lead to a "comparative affront" to the manner in which other shanty town evictions have been carried out in Madrid.

"The balance is therefore very complicated," the report continues, especially in view of the ongoing economic crisis and "contentious public expenditure." City Hall has thus called for a "substantial dose of realism."

That, I submit, is a suitably sensitive position for a loval government to take, especially when you're talking about moving 60 thousand illegal settlers.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 05:41:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know what you are talking about. Belgrade also has permanent illegal plots with massive population (especially after the war when a lot of refugees from Croatia and Bosnia came). Government just let them be...all tho they are not on prominent place but on outskirts of Belgrade. Those are normal houses just built illegally.
But this is different story...These are NOT permanent dwellings and are actually very dangerous to live in.
Also in this case it is 257 families (974 people) to be moved...and government can afford it...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 06:00:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the point is, no hard and fast rules are possible but once you let them be for a sufficient period of time, it strains "human rights" to evict people.

In your example, if you're allowed to camp in Central Park for two years, on what grounds can the then evict you?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 07:17:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They will not let me make my own dwelling in Central Park and live there...for any length of time.
Why they let them be there (Belgrade) for such a long time?
That's a good question. Probably because when all this started they had a lot more problems to deal with...and no money to spend even for cabins...
I remember in 2004 when I went to Belgrade during winter time and we were travelling from airport to the city, while we were approaching bridge on Sava river, suddenly we were facing very strong stink / smell and smoke coming from under the bridge.WTF is this I asked and my brother told me that Roma people who lived under the bridge were actually burning real garbage in their "houses" to get worm. Smell was horrific. How is this healthy for them? Not to mention that they do not have anything resembling toilets or God forbid bathrooms in their "houses". Now you can imagine what foreigners may think about this when they come to Belgrade. I was shocked. People just can't live in this situation even if they want to. Not in civilised world.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:28:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It actually does happen in New York. There are squatters in NY City. It's not unheard of.
by Upstate NY on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:45:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah but would NY government cancel building the road just not to disturb squatters "human rights"? And from what I have heard squatters live in abandoned existing building...this people "build" their "houses" where ever they want...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:54:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah how nice, the defenders of private property are active on ET!

Do we demand that people buy or rent the land their homes are on, or can we live with such a thing as commons? Can these Roma perhaps teach us something in regard to property rights?

by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:32:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dream on...we (in East Europe etc,) once dreamed about communism...great dream...all tho worthless in reality.
And I am not even talking about private property here. Which I definitely defend...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:49:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Against commons? Interesting. Couldn't disagree more.
by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:23:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Private property is "natural way" and denying it was wrong (examples everywhere in the world where experiment with communism failed).
State/governments should "simply" work on laws/taxes that would make wealth appropriately distributed. Whatever good has been done in the past (in Sweden and Western Europe mostly) to achieve this goal has been destroyed in last decade and will be destroyed in near future. Such a pity...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is absolutely nothing "natural way" in private property or more generally in property laws and the current expropriation of the public by privatisations is horrifying.
by Katrin on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 04:59:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
current expropriation of the public by privatisations is horrifying.
-----------
Now we've found one point where we agree. But I am not going to dismiss private property as such because of these crooks.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:19:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am dismissing private property (at least largely) because it leads inevitably to the crooks.
by Katrin on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 02:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh...Crooks too are "natural"...You simply cannot imagine how many crooks we had during socialism...Tito being one of the biggest...and supposedly they did not OWN too much (formally)...or they did...it's just that we were not told...
As I said it was a nice dream...reality was so much different. Instead of capitalists we had "political class" enjoying same benefits as capitalists in capitalism. No matter how you call them crooks are still crooks.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 09:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Parasites and crooks gravitate to the easiest location to "do their thing."  Under Yugoslavian "Socialism" it was the Commissars and functionaries in the Zveza komunistov Jugoslavije.  Under "Free Market Capitalism" it's banks and financial institutions.

Different advertising, same scumbags.

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's becoming obvious that for you there is a dichotomy between the property laws in dictatorships of the communist East Europe on the one hand and those allowing private property. Forms of collective property don't interest you, you summarily dismiss them as unrealistic (how come that so many of them work satisfactorily to this day?). I am really fed up with attempts to stop every debate of putting property under democratic control by a whine of how things were run in the dictatorships of Eastern Europe. I am talking of something else.
by Katrin on Sun Apr 29th, 2012 at 04:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Forms of collective property don't interest you, you summarily dismiss them as unrealistic (how come that so many of them work satisfactorily to this day?).
------------

Hoh...Can you please give me one good example that I can get a picture what your dream is all about?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Mon Apr 30th, 2012 at 02:12:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The classic example is shared pastures. This form of collective property survived especially in ecologically vulnerable areas (the Alps, for instance). Another example is (loosely) wikipedia, which actually has an article on commons. So, "dream" isn't the best choice of words. It's a fairly common (ahem) form of property. Not comparable to self-referential forms of property, which is very exotic (but exists).
by Katrin on Mon Apr 30th, 2012 at 06:39:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you...but I am not convinced...
Do not get me wrong, I like the idea but I don't think it's a solution or even possible, bearing in mind human nature. Then again I am realist/pessimist...maybe because I am old and full of experience.
I like to see tho that someone has ideals... where would we be without them...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue May 1st, 2012 at 08:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I like the idea but I don't think it's a solution or even possible

For "proof" that it's not possible, take the fact that they used to exist until they were legislated out of existance in order to force people to emigrate to the cities to work in factories for the industrial revolution.

You think Katrin has no experience and/or is full of ideals. Maybe she knows history.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 1st, 2012 at 08:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo:
because I am old and full of experience

Forgive me, but I think I am probably no younger than you. Yet I have lived and worked (as a shepherd) with common pastures in the Pyrenees, and I know farmers today who use them. They are generally organized by local pastoral associations.

Not only that, but I live in a small hamlet (and I know others like it) where the buildings are individual property but the surrounding ground common. This is not in fact so different from people owning an apartment but not the stairs and hall, which are common, or owning a house in town but not the street in front, which is public. Common and public spaces are organized by different bodies and rules, and have existed for centuries.

There used to be more commons, but they were enclosed and privatised by the wealthy, to the detriment of the poor who could no longer use them. If this had been due to human "nature", it would surely have happened long before, yet it is a relatively recent phenomenon, dating back over the last couple of centuries. The rise of capitalism transformed the old hierarchies (where power through rank came with corresponding obligations to subordinates) into power through concentration of wealth with no obligations to subordinates. The notion of individual freedom (of thought and speech, of romantic involvement, of political and economic action) was developed in the Enlightenment, and became the basis of economic theory alleging that the greatest good of the greatest number came about "naturally" as the result of the sum of the acts of individuals seeking their own material betterment. This economic theory, still the standard account today, explains why power through concentration of wealth does not need to come with corresponding obligations, rather conveniently for the concentrators.

Today individualism is on display everywhere in the developed world, with the insistence on the private house surrounded by its private garden, the private jamjar in which to seal oneself off as one travels public streets and roads, the portable entertainment channelled through earphones or the mobile phone obsession by which individuals behave privately when not sealed off in cars or private dwellings. The more wealth is concentrated in a small number of hands, the more the mass of people are convinced the individual life is what matters. The very idea of organising common goods, of sharing, becomes less and less conceivable. But this is the result of an historical shift in economic power and the narrative that is advanced to explain it. It's not human "nature", it's history.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 2nd, 2012 at 03:40:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said I like the idea but unfortunately it looks more and more like real HISTORY to me.
Of course again unfortunately (for the reasons you mentioned up there and I agree it's so) we have lost this ability to share (not all of us but those are minority).
And obviously I do not disagree that there are good examples even today but I am just not convinced that it could be done on a large scale (highly industrialised society)...not because it's not possible (there are examples there too) but because there is no will on a larger scale. Common thing today is greed and it took epidemic proportions.
Human nature...I do not want to start on this...so complex...But looking at history seems like private property prevailed. That tells me something about human nature...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed May 2nd, 2012 at 03:59:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Private property "prevailed", because it is enforced, and extremely brutally at that! You have been shown several examples of collective forms of property working perfectly well, so how can you claim they were against "human nature"?! If greed was a "common thing" and what human nature normally is about, how come that wikipedia exists?

Humans are unable to survive on their own (and I mean that literally), let alone to produce efficiently. Everything we produce is the result of collective efforts. It is completely against human nature to have private property. Collective property ought to be the norm, private property the exotic exception.

by Katrin on Wed May 2nd, 2012 at 08:26:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Private property may be enforced (long long time ago) but as we live in so called democracy it must be that a lot of people are brainwashed cause at the time of great need of majority of the people (financial crises that we are going trough) as we can witness now most of the people are voting conservatives in many countries. This puzzles me. Seems like they do not want to share. In a time of unprecedented prosperity (historically talking) in developed countries, people seem to be selfish and are voting right (and even extreme right). This too telling me something about human nature...or are they eating some strange mushrooms?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed May 2nd, 2012 at 05:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It may be human nature, and it may be human culture. Or do you think people vote from the tabula rasa of the mind of a newborn baby?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 2nd, 2012 at 06:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo:
As I said I like the idea but unfortunately it looks more and more like real HISTORY to me.
Of course again unfortunately (for the reasons you mentioned up there and I agree it's so) we have lost this ability to share (not all of us but those are minority).
So it's nurture, not nature, isn't it?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 2nd, 2012 at 06:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not a "long long time ago". It's an ongoing process . It's not about sharing either: it's about collective property and acknowledging that we produce in collectives. You needn't be unselfish for that (although I doubt that most people are as selfish as you claim--selfishness depends on the situation one is in). These things aren't exactly over-emphasised in our education-systems, which is a better explanation than your mushrooms, I think.
by Katrin on Wed May 2nd, 2012 at 06:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that the case that "tax money" that we pay to government is a kind of collective property (to be shared)? We expect our governments to organize services for us individually and as a "nation"/state. Governments collected this money from the beginning of the time. And they did spend (at least some of the money) for those services in the past (electricity, roads, hospitals, universities etc.) Now we are in democracies (some of us) right? We have a chance to vote for one of the options: left or right. No matter how badly "left" has betrayed us by privatising some of those services,  with them we still have at least something resembling those services. I remember how quite a few working people used to be angry that their tax money is going to those "unemployed tugs"...now that they are losing their jobs as we speak I hope they know better. But it is in human nature not to be able to have empathy for others until they "walk in their shoes"...
On the other hand "right" openly promise to privatise as much as possible and people are voting for them in masses. We all know what privatisation of those services means...less jobs, higher prices, less service, lower wages...
Do you have an explanation other ten we are all brainwashed trough education system?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed May 2nd, 2012 at 10:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I'd agree that tax money in a democracy is collective property. It's a sign for our flawed democracies that taxation is seen as some sort of theft: we have too little democratic control or else we would see taxation differently. In local contexts, where we can see that we pay for something we really need and want, citizens often feel perfectly content with the expense.

The commons is interesting where it concerns productive capital. Private property of means of production for a collective process of production with the result of private ownership of the produce actually is the most far-fetched legislation I can think of and not a matter of "human nature".

It is crucial that the users of the commons feel their responsibility toward the common property and act accordingly. Democratic control of the rules helps. So does the knowledge that the common good is vital. On the local level you can see and grasp that easily. This is why the commons work fairly well in the Alpine landscape with few users and therefore easy communication, and where ecological mistakes mean more avalanches. It does not work well with keeping the air clean or leaving enough fish in the oceans. I don't agree with you that we simply give up attempting to solve the problems of the commons with the excuse that "human nature" doesn't allow it.

Private property is an invention that was legislated into existence and that is at the root of most of our problems. The sooner we legislate it out of existence the better.

by Katrin on Thu May 3rd, 2012 at 08:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Private property was legislated into existence a long time ago. "Western" concepts of property can trace their origin partly to the Roman Dominium
Dominium properly signifies the right of dealing with a corporeal thing as a person (dominus) pleases; this, of course, implies the right to exclude all others from meddling with it. The dominus has the right to possess, and is distinguished in that respect from the bare possessor, who has only the right of possession. He who has the ususfructus of a thing, is never considered as owner; and proprietas is the name for that which remains after the ususfructus is deducted from the ownership. Ownership may be either absolute, that is, as complete as the law any ownership to be, or it may be limited. The distinction between bare ownership and ownership united with the beneficial interest, is explained in another place. [Bona.] A person who has no ownership of a thing, may have rights in or to a thing which, as far as they extend, limit the owner's power over his property, as hereafter explained. Ownership, being in its nature single, can only be conceived as belonging to one person; consequently there cannot be several owners of one thing, but several persons may own undivided shares or parts of a thing.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2012 at 08:55:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But even the romans didn't allow abolute ownership (Dominium) of anything and everything
Res is the general name for anything which is the object of a legal act. The chief division of res is into res divini juris, and res humani juris. Res divini juris are those which are appropriated to religious purposes, namely, res sacrae, sanctae, religiosae; and so long as they have this character, they cannot be the objects of property. Res humani juris are all other things that can be the objects of property; and they are either res publicae or res privatae. Res publicae belong to the state, and can only become private property by being deprived of this public character [Agrariae Leges]. Res universitatis are the property of a universitas, and are not the property of any individual. The phrase res nullius is ambiguous; it sometimes means that the thing cannot be the property of any individual, which is affirmed of things divini juris; when applied to things humani juris, it sometimes means that they are not the property of an individual but of a universitas; yet such things may become the property of an individual; res hereditariae are res nullius until there is a heres. Res communes are those which cannot be the objects of property, and therefore are res nullius, as the sea.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2012 at 08:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hammurabi's code is fun, too:
9. If a man has lost property and some of it be detected in the possession of another, and the holder has said, "A man sold it to me, I bought it in the presence of witnesses"; and if the claimant has said, "I can bring witnesses who know it to be property lost by me"; then the alleged buyer on his part shall produce the man who sold it to him and the witnesses before whom he bought it; the claimant shall on his part produce the witnesses who know it to be his lost property. The judge shall examine their pleas. The witnesses to the sale and the witnesses who identify the lost property shall state on oath what they know. Such a seller is the thief and shall be put to death. The owner of the lost property shall recover his lost property. The buyer shall recoup himself from the seller's estate.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2012 at 09:15:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In short, only the owner can sell property and the "buyer" of stolen goods has no claim against the owner. Sounds familiar. So, that's where our legislators found that. How very convenient for them that nobody has the copyright for Hammurabi's ideas, and that they are commons, isn't it?

If you want real fun, you don't restrict yourself to natural persons. Hamburg, although the home of greedy merchants, still has some pre-German self-referential property: a company owns itself. It's pretty unusual, I believe. A nightmare for neoliberals who want to privatise it, of course. There were two of these left, a fire insurance and a savings bank. Our mayor managed to sell the insurance that he didn't own, but the bank, now the last company of that sort, watches out.

by Katrin on Thu May 3rd, 2012 at 09:59:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The dominance of private property and the marginalisation of all other forms of property is fairly new. It's a feature of capitalism.
by Katrin on Thu May 3rd, 2012 at 10:02:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read this:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=CxA8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=samoupravljanje+/+s elf+governing&source=bl&ots=YmloX92FgG&sig=bDNrLQ5s5fBtcLT-ijW3h2jNZdM&hl=en&sa= X&ei=0EWjT6z7KYTBiQfqgoCvDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=samoupravljanje%20%2F%20self%20g overning&f=false

It failed...
We can call it dictatorship because, while we had chance to VOTE for our representatives being all from one single party ,we had no chance to vote out our leader Tito (it was clearly said that he is a leader for life).
Still it seemed like a good idea. In reality it did not work for many reasons...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu May 3rd, 2012 at 11:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not surprised that dictatorship failed, and I recommend democracy. You however recommend the most undemocratic form of property rights and expect what? Democracy?
by Katrin on Fri May 4th, 2012 at 06:28:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How is private property "undemocratic"?
In my opinion there are other ways to share wealth of one society rather than to nationalise and confiscate...It did not work in past, it does not work now and will not work in the future...for many reasons...the most important would be that people feel about "common property" as it is nobodies property so they do not care that much and probably the other most important reason is that there will be (more) crooks to take an advantage from this situation. And we are not talking about shared pastures or Wikipedia here...we are talking multibillion global corporations...Who and how FCS is going to control it?
If (ever) human conscientiousness  is elevated to that level we would be able to have communism all around the globe (cause that's brilliant idea) but I sincerely doubt that it will be on that level EVER...If anything we are going backwards on this matter.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri May 4th, 2012 at 09:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my opinion there are other ways to share wealth of one society rather than to nationalise and confiscate...

How is private property created, if not by confiscation? I want to take it back from the thieves. If you think owners have a justified claim: where does it derive from?

there will be (more) crooks to take an advantage from this situation.

Even more crooks than now? How, since property would be under democratic control? Why is a collective worse than Mr Blankfein?

people feel about "common property" as it is nobodies property so they do not care that much

The "tragedy of the commons", yes. If you followed Mig's and my links, you must have seen that there is a heap of literature on the topic, suggesting that this behaviour occurs less often than thought. This is in accordance with my experience in protecting the environment: thousands and millions of us were and are prepared to be active in order to protect this commons against pollution by privately run business.

With respect, but aren't you a bit naïve in your defence of private property?

by Katrin on Sat May 5th, 2012 at 12:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
one of you should write a diary on this most important issue. the discussion deserves better than a more-than-a-week-old salon, imo.

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 5th, 2012 at 01:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
one wonders how/why the whole private property thing was born.

privacy?

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 5th, 2012 at 01:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're about to invent multi-party dictatorship here in Europe.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 5th, 2012 at 02:43:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

(also at INET)

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2012 at 06:03:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're confusing commons with communism.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 05:54:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Am I?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.
by Katrin on Sun Apr 29th, 2012 at 04:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyway, it's not about Serbia.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:16:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think it's not about Serbia? This is happening in Serbia and somehow western media would not miss a bloody chance to pick on Serbia...even now when they have "their" government installed there...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is happening elsewhere too. The rights of Roma are violated everywhere.
by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:52:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Human rights activists attacked Sarkozy's anti-roma policies only to shame Serbia. Because Serbia is the center of the universe and the subject of the grandest plot.

According to Serbians.

by rootless2 on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:03:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh...very fanny...Still I would prefer western media to once put a shame on USA for a change, because it is real centre of this rotten world (politic)...But I can dream on...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this discussion is pretty interesting. Maybe there are two separate issues here, one being the question of whether a government can forcibly evict people in order to build a road, and then separately whether it is ok to squat on property that you don't have title to.

The first one is pretty easy, because obviously governments have this power. Not only over squatters but over anybody whose house gets in the way.

The second one is harder, and I would put it into the category of "gray area in the legal system." Certainly in places like Central America, where land tenure is extremely convoluted and it's almost impossible to get a clear title, there is always at least a worry that you don't actually own what you think you own. And if property is abandoned by its legal owner, as happens in cities sometimes when the taxes get to be higher than the income possibility, then is that still "owned" by the title holder? Public parks are probably off-limits because they have a clearly defined perimeter and purpose, but what about roadside verges and creek banks in industrial areas where nobody ever goes?

What do you do with people who don't want to live the way other people do? Put them in the workhouse?

by asdf on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:38:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are very analytical...great.
In Belgrade city one can't actually possess land title...This goes far back after they nationalised city land after WWII and when communists came in power. To this day my house is on state land and I am paying for it even tho my grandad bought that land prior to WWII and I have written document about it (title). Who cares?
So all the land in Belgrade city is state  land only buildings are private (at least most of them now that Milosevic sold them to the people for 200 Euros...Mustn't you love Milosevic , Katrin?
It's a matter of decent living conditions for these people...and hey it's Europe in 21 century. I am all for personal freedoms but yes this definitely affects a lot of others...and themselves...They live much shorter then others and mortality is much bigger in their kids...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why does it follow that I must love Milosevic if I love your land laws, I wonder?

Are you seriously claiming that it's the cultural specifics of the Roma, not their poverty, which makes them die earlier?

by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:24:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes of course its poverty. But how the hell you can expect them to get out of that poverty if they are not educated? And they leave school prior to finishing primary school (8 years in Serbia). They are often forced by law to send their children (especially girls) to primary school that is compulsory in Serbia. That's why they can only get dirty jobs with minimal salary.
It is definitely not helping to just give them apartments because they do not want to live there. A lot of them are anyway on social welfare (which is so small comparing to western that they can't live on it).
I can't really see how we can help them without proper education that would lead to better jobs. Then again it would totally disrupt their "culture" of living one "carefree" nonconventional life... and sing it away, ha-ha. And they sing so great and are masters in entertaining others...and themselves.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:47:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The school drop out quota of Roma depends on the degree of discrimination they face in a certain place. You are reproducing all sorts of prejudices here. This has nothing to do with any stereotypes of "carefree nonconventional" life. Even the "masters in entertaining" thing is very conventional: members of a stigmatised minority have two ways of gaining recognition: sport and music.
by Katrin on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 01:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if we don't change our ways, it'll be us begging (survival knowledge) from them too damn soon.

they don't get "normal" motivations. different mental architecture completely. closer to humanity's rootstock, and the scions so far suggested (integration into the multikulti) don't appear to graft easily.

sometimes they seem to me like an inverse reflection, they reject host countries' social aspirations in favour of their own ancient culture, living by their own tribal lights as examples to us of who we too might be in their shoes, if the bourgeois sides of our identity were somehow stripped away. their existence force us to question why we make the choices we do, and how we might be, if raised with their belief systems.

their existence passively mocks our superiority complex, living in our most rejected places, wastelands festooned with the shabby plastic detritus of our throwaway consumer society.

it's easy to feel pity, (especially for the kids), but they don't seem to want or need that. they think the rest of the world is as strange as they are judged by the rest. they just ain't buying what's on offer, and time may prove them prescient.

mighty tough survivors, that's what i get when i see them.

as the rest of us race into an increasingly alarming future, they are in no similar hurry, hanging back and hedging their bets, as it were.

their time will come... they have seen many haughty societies rise and fall in their long history of reluctant symbiosis. they have their own enigmatic reasons for what they choose to maintain, and i wonder even if there are words outside their own language to describe their inner states of mind.

they were quite romanticised in victorian times, (like running off to join a circus), joining a gypsy caravan, tinking in the dells, hedgehog roasting in the embers, strains of a raspy violin. there were some niches in the rural world, sharpening scissors and knives. these days there's not much call for that kind of stuff. use it and lose it.

laurie lee was plugged in to this, later. nowadays it's like they defy romanticisation. we will have to look further for our noble savage projections, i guess!

these times be hard on romantics all over, in all tribes methinks.

let's see who has the last laugh.

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 03:04:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if we don't change our ways, it'll be us begging (survival knowledge) from them too damn soon.
--------
You may be right about this but I doubt it...We may tho go to some "primitive" tribes (being still involved in primitive agriculture) to learn how to survive without technology...We may tho learn some of the things from Roma people but I will not go there...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 10:41:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that I know what you think about "them" I no longer am surprised at your suspecting (anti-Serb) prejudice everywhere.
by Katrin on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 02:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Property is theft." -- Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

"Property is liberty." -- Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

"Property is impossible." -- Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."  -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

:-)

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot

by ATinNM on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 03:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Comment was supposed to be a reply to this.  

Skepticism is the first step on the road to truth. -- Denis Diderot
by ATinNM on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 03:28:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One size doesn't fit all. Roma are undeniably a European people; arguably a transnational people, who often don't profess any attachment to a particular nation-state, and are generally regarded as foreigners by everyone, marginalised economically and socially. What's more, they generally have no cultural affinity for sedentary living. No nation state has found a comfortable way of coexisting with its Roma population. I think the nation states are a major part of the problem.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:05:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you. They are very interesting people. And I don't want people here to get me wrong (I do not dismiss their culture). I went to primary school with some of them because there was one street in our quart (not any more because they sold their properties to developers) where they concentrated. In Serbia they would for centuries take Serbian names (all tho mostly surnames) and even religion (they celebrate same Saints) but they are quite resistant to change their way of life (and I do not talk here about their heredity habits but mostly about living conditions). So they used to live in this street in the middle of Belgrade again without proper hygiene facilities etc. This really puzzles me. And yes I think without education it is impossible to go forward in any culture.
You people are raising your eyebrows on Islamic culture where they ban girls from education and do honour killings, aren't you? Well Roma girls are very often banned from education and their parents would marry them even before puberty...and not just girls...boys too...I do not want to even go in to it what happens there...How do you like that?


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"No nation state has found a comfortable way of coexisting with its Roma population."

Perhaps not perfectly, but the U.S. seems to be unable to distinguish the Roma from a bunch of other ethnicities--which makes it harder to discriminate against them.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/For-Roma-Life-in-US-Has-Challenges-119394819.html

by asdf on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 04:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very good article...everyone should read it. They are selling young girls (fiancé is 18 and in high school so one can imagine what age girl may be) as we speak in the middle of USA. I do not see Human rights organisations (or Katrin) fighting for the rights of those girls...and they have been sold against their will most of the time (and what could be considered their will at 13 or 14 years of age anyway)...
Fighting Islamic laws is somehow IN in western mind but this seems not to be...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Time magazine: Spain's Tolerance of Gypsies: A Model for Europe? (Sept. 16, 2010)
Antonio Moreno lives on what is reputedly Madrid's most dangerous street, where dealers openly offer any type of drug around the clock. He owns a four-bedroom house with a pool; he works out of his own photo and video studio -- and he's a Gypsy, one of the 40,000 inhabitants of an illegal settlement on the outskirts of the Spanish capital. If they lived in just about any other European country, Moreno and his neighbors would be the source of tension and controversy:
This is a huge understatement regarding the Cañada Real, but while not free of controversy and tension the place is not about to be bulldozed
on Tuesday, the European Union called France's continued deportation of its Gypsies a "disgrace" and threatened disciplinary action against the country. Suddenly, all across Europe, a community that is used to living on the fringes is now in the spotlight -- and in some cases, suffering heightened prejudice as a result. But Moreno isn't worried. Because when it comes to dealing with Gypsies -- also known as Roma -- Spain is different.

"[The deportations] will never happen here," says Moreno. "We are integrated. I'm first Spanish, then Gypsy, and I'm proud to be both." While many European countries see their Roma communities as problems to be tackled, Spain has embraced its Gypsies, giving them rights, celebrating their history and making them feel at home. "Of course there is racism, but it's better here than anywhere else I've seen," Moreno says, referring to his trips to Italy, France, Germany and the Czech Republic. "Spain has helped Gypsies a lot."

Indeed, 35 years after the death of dictator Francisco Franco, the lives of the Roma have improved dramatically. "We weren't even human before. We were animals," says Moreno of the time when authorities prevented Gypsies from working, studying or even gathering in groups bigger than four. Today the European Commission, E.U. member countries and the Roma themselves all agree that Spain has become the model for integrating Gypsies, with some citing it as a case of good practices. Now the governments of Bulgaria, Slovakia, Hungary, the Czech Republic and even Romania -- where many Roma come from -- are looking to Spain for ideas to apply themselves.

Anyway, back to the Cañada Real:
What does Madrid City Hall propose? It views simple legalization of the settlement as unviable, because it "radically" fails to comply with the most basic urban regulations. Cañada Real is too close to the Valdemingómez garbage dump and the city's southeastern regional park. It is also enclosed by major highways and has no public services or transport. Furthermore, a "large number of homes are in a bad state," and its social fabric is a "combination of the most problematic and least sustainable groups, who have a tendency to form ghettos." Finally, there is the problem of delinquency, such as building "speculative" settlements as a strategy to negotiate compensation with the authorities, as well as the sale of drugs. According to the report, 90 percent of all drugs sold in Madrid come from Cañada Real.

The regeneration of the settlement has been "completely" ruled out, "as it is very likely that within a few years it will suffer continual and permanent deterioration." Creating a new neighborhood is not on the agenda, and the "radical" solution of simply bulldozing the settlement has been shelved. City Hall has therefore proposed an "open proposition" that consists of regularizing some areas and removing others to create green spaces, while also providing "palliative services."

City Hall therefore proposes "consolidating and legalizing" the first stretches in Vicálvaro, which are "clearly sustainable and viable," by connecting them to existing neighborhoods. It also suggests altering city limits to incorporate a part of the Rivas-Vaciamadrid stretch. This would bring 1,202 residents into the fold. The remainder of the settlement would be demolished to create green spaces, with some 60 percent of the 4,464 people affected to be relocated by the authorities. "At least 40 percent of families would have to resolve their housing needs themselves. The rest will be relocated, as long as they meet the habitual standards in this process," the report concludes.

Also, not all people living in shanty towns are Gypsy, most are just dirt-poor victims of internal migration in the past 50-60 years.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 05:44:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is also the inverse example of governments that build illegal towns. An example in the Middle East springs to mind. What sort of land tenure rules apply in that case?

Also, what about the cases where property was in a battlefield area and where no peace settlement was reached? Who gets to decide if an individual can "own" such property? Several such cases exist--including for example the entire city of Seoul, where 10 million people live on land claimed by North Korea.

by asdf on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 10:06:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Basically what exactly these people are going to get and where and when? It is not clear to me not knowing anything about Madrid or these policies...Are they going to give them apartments? On what terms? Where is it going to be and do they like location? Do they get any financial support from government? Sorry but I need more answers...
Roma people very rarely had real problems in Serbia during socialism (excluding jokes about them but we also make jokes about ourselves too). Yes recently with those Neo Nazi groups of youngsters (and idea came from Europe, never have been known in Serbia before) there are some incidents...but they are hardly isolated (look at East Europe and elsewhere).


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:01:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe there are two separate issues here, one being the question of whether a government can forcibly evict people in order to build a road, and then separately whether it is ok to squat on property that you don't have title to.

The first one is pretty easy, because obviously governments have this power. Not only over squatters but over anybody whose house gets in the way.

The question is not whether the government has the power to do it, but whether it's a humane thing to do. Which has nothing to do with power or even legality.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 05:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In india, one sees recently widened roads bordered by apartment buildings that have been sliced in parts, with people living in the half rooms that no longer have a front wall.
by rootless2 on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 08:34:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow!
by asdf on Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 04:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Enlargement / Turkey and China host biggest EU outposts
The EU's top 10 delegations in terms of staff numbers are: Ankara (137), Beijing/Hong Kong (116), Moscow (102), Belgrade (100), Tel Aviv/Ramallah (97), Kiev (93), Sarajevo (92), New Delhi (87), Washington (86) and Nairobi (85). The EU also has 187 people posted to various branches of the UN, the WTO, the African Union, the OECD economic club and democracy watchdogs the OSCE and the Council of Europe.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Justice & Home Affairs / Sale of women and girls booms in Europe
THE HAGUE - Human trafficking is booming in Europe, the Hague-based Eurojust, the EU's crime fighting unit, said on Thursday (26 April). But the number of cases brought against traffickers is grossly disproportionate to the number of reported victims.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Foreign Affairs / European MPs call for international enquiry into Magnitsky affair

BRUSSELS - Sixty nine MPs from across Europe have called for an international enquiry into the death of Russian lawyer Sergei Magnitsky.

The deputies - who hail mostly from EU countries, but also Croatia, Iceland, Norway, Serbia and Switzerland - signed the motion at the human rights watchdog, the Council of Europe (CoE), in Strasbourg on Wednesday (25 April).

If the council's steering group at its meeting on Friday gives the green light, the motion will trigger an in-depth investigation on the model of previous enquiries into CIA renditions, organ smuggling in Kosovo and death squads in Belarus.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:04:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Belarus / EU ambassadors trickle back to Minsk

BRUSSELS - All EU ambassadors are returning to Minsk in a bid to improve deteriorating relations with Belarus dictator Alexander Lukashenko, in power for the past 18 years.

"All EU ambassadors are returning to Minsk, including our own ambassador," a spokesman for Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office told Reuters on Wednesday (25 April).

EU ambassadors left Belarus in March in a display of solidarity when Lukashenko kicked out Polish envoy and the EU envoy in February for helping draw up new sanctions against the regime.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
French centrists struggle to keep middle ground - FRENCH ELECTIONS 2012 - FRANCE 24

Centrist leader François Bayrou has promised to weigh in on the second round of France's presidential vote before Election Day. But while he hopes to hold sway on the May 6 contest pitting incumbent president Nicolas Sarkozy against Socialist challenger François Hollande, the moderate politician seems to be losing control of his own Democratic Movement (MoDem) party.

Bayrou's 9.1% support placed him fifth in the first round of the election, behind far-right leader Marine Le Pen (19.7%) and extreme-left candidate Jean-Luc Mélenchon (11.1%). On Wednesday, he sent a letter to Sarkozy and Hollande, asking the two men to reply to his concerns in view of a potential second-round endorsement.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Murdoch blames tabloid for phone hacking 'cover-up' - UK - FRANCE 24

REUTERS - Rupert Murdoch blamed News of the World journalists for conspiring to cover up a culture of phone-hacking at the tabloid, saying they hid their activities from his son James and protegee Rebekah Brooks and that he personally was not paying attention.

In a second day of testimony in Britain's High Court on Thursday, Murdoch painted a picture of a rogue culture at the best-selling Sunday tabloid, in an echo of his company's now abandoned defence that a single "rogue reporter" was to blame.

"I think in newspapers, the reporters do act very much on their own, they do protect their sources, they don't disclose to their colleagues what they are doing," Murdoch told a judicial inquiry into press ethics.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
lmao A testimony brim full of legalisms and evasions, a man famously in control of his companies suddenly feigns ignorance of the principal modus operandi of his major title.

Every time you tell a lie, a little fairy has to die
BREAKING : Carnage in fairyland, millions dead

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 02:43:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Daily show view

The scandal goes all the way to the ... bottom

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 03:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if they will let him use his Twitter account from jail?
by asdf on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:39:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thousands gather in Oslo to sing song Anders Breivik hates | World news | guardian.co.uk

Up to 40,000 Norwegians have staged an emotionally charged singalong in Oslo near the court building where Anders Behring Breivik is on trial for the murder of 77 people in a protest organisers said showed he had not broken their tolerant society.

"It's we who win," said guitar-strumming folk singer Lillebjørn Nilsen as he led the mass singalong and watched the crowd sway gently in the rain. Many held roses above their heads, and some wept.

The protest followed several days of defiant testimony from Breivik, who has admitted killing his victims but denied criminal guilt.

The crowd chose to sing Children of the Rainbow, a song that extols the type of multicultural society Breivik has said he despises and one he dismissed during the trial as Marxist propaganda.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
this is how civilisation wins. Adhering to the process of justice and civic society coming together to mock their persecutor.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 02:47:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One can think of a suitable punishment...

by asdf on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:47:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Czech government faces vote of confidence after protests over austerity | World news | guardian.co.uk

The rightwing coalition in Prague is to face a vote of confidence in parliament on Friday in the latest survival test facing governments across Europe as they struggle to stay in office in the age of austerity.

The three-party government of the prime minister, Petr Necas, is hanging on by the most slender of margins, battered by large street protests over spending cuts, tax increases, job losses and corruption, and the splintering of his smallest coalition partner, after less than two years in power.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Eurointelligence Daily Briefing: S&P downgrades Spain by two notches
Spain's sovereign rating has been cut to BBB+ with a negative outlook; S&P is concerned about the possibility of a deeper than expected recession, and its impact on the deficit and debt; S&P also warns that Spain may have to provide more fiscal support to the banking system; S&P says eurozone efforts to solve the crisis continue to lack effectiveness; under an adverse scenario, Spain's GDP could drop by 4% this year, which would then lead to further downgrades; the Spanish government said S&P had failed to take into account the economic reforms; El Pais reports that the Spanish government released a misleading translation of an IMF report on Spanish banks that downplayed the effects; the original report said Spanish banks would mask risks through refinancing non-performing loans;El Pais article noted that the Bank of Spain discouraged such practises, but investors were concerned because of a lack of data;the Dutch government agree a deal with small, centrist opposition parties on a series of budget cuts and tax increase to meet the 2013 deficit target of 3%; deal includes cuts to healthcare and education, and increase in VAT, and reductions in tax relief; Angela Merkel rejects the call by Francois Hollande to renegotiate the fiscal pact, saying it has been agreed by 25 governments; Wolfgang Schäuble says growth is already a component of the pact; Mario Draghi has become the latest eurozone official to endorse the idea of a eurozone-wide bank resolution authority; French unemployment registered its nine consecutive monthly increase; Robin Wells, meanwhile, argues that the eurozone's mishandling of the crisis could play into the hands of President Obama in his election campaign.


guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 02:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
under an adverse scenario, Spain's GDP could drop by 4% this year, which would then lead to further downgrades; the Spanish government said S&P had failed to take into account the economic reforms

Quite right. Taking into account the full effect of the reforms, we're looking at, what, -7 or -8%, surely.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 03:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, 4% is already 2-3% faster contraction than forecast by the Bank of Spain, Spanish Government, EU, or IMF.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 04:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Wolfgang Schäuble says growth is already a component of the pact

En creux, as it were.

(Probably this expression isn't used in English... it means something which is visible by its conspicuous absence. Also a connotation here of negative growth. End of laborious non-translation. Seemed amusing to me at the time.)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 03:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Schäuble for EcoFin chairman!

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 04:05:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As if that means anything: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice...
That is what we can learn from lessons of the past. There can only be an Economic and Monetary Union in as much as there is a balance between the economic and the monetary. And that is only the first condition to which others must be added, a point I will come back to. I had proposed the coordination of economic policies in 1997, when I was no longer president of the European Commission but a simple French citizen. I had proposed this as a consequence of the 1987 Delors report. It was not taken up: instead, "growth" was simply added to "stability". That is typically French, the French adore formal requirements. They returned home happy because "growth" had been mentioned. How irresponsible. Or what a fraud?
(Jacques Delors: for a revival of europe)

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 04:14:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
AGI.it: Merkel says fiscal pact not negotiable
Chancellor Merkel had said the Fiscal Union Accord signed by 25 EU countries out of 27 "is not negotiable".

...

  "The growth challenge has long been the second column of our political policy together with the solidity of public finances," Merkel added. ...

Yo break it, you own it, Angie. And it appears you want to own it.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 03:55:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European Council of Foreign Relations, Madrid: Time to say basta to the nonsense of austerity (José I. Torreblanca in the Financial Times)
Something must be wrong in the EU when a pro-Europe, pro-austerity conservative government is ignored by Berlin or, worse, humiliated by France. Something must be wrong too when the International Monetary Fund endorses your programme of reforms and asks whether you really need such tough fiscal consolidation at a time of recession - yet nobody in Brussels, Berlin or Frankfurt cares to listen. Equally worrying is that the European Commission happily endorses Spain's severe cuts in education and research spending, deliberately ignoring the fact that these are incompatible with both the sustainable growth model it has been advocating for a decade and Spain's urgent need to move away from an economic model based on real estate.

...

Who governs? In the EU as we teach it to our students, the commission speaks for the general interest and has the right of initiative, while member states and citizens have their say through the European Council and parliament. But in today's Europe, EU institutions have been hollowed out as real power flows back and forth from Berlin to the corridors of the ECB, where the real battles about the crisis are fought in opacity.

The fiscal compact, the most unbalanced and asymmetric treaty member states have ever signed, is the best illustration of the new Europe: while austerity is strictly enforced, growth is barely promised. In the good old EU, member states were equal and treaties represented a compromise between competing visions of Europe. Now, Europe is about asymmetries in power and fear for the future. Europe now resembles Thomas Hobbes' description of man's life in its natural state: "poor, nasty, brutish and short." Two years on, not a single growth measure has been adopted. Time to say: basta!



guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 04:24:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spiegel: 'Berlin Is Running Out of Allies in Euro Crisis' (04/24/2012)
The collapse of the Dutch government, the prospect of Socialist François Hollande as next French president and the surging popularity of far-right parties shows that budget discipline is out of fashion in Europe. Chancellor Angela Merkel is looking increasingly lonely in her fight to save the euro through painful austerity measures, write German commentators.

...

Business daily Handelsblatt, which runs the front-page headline "Is Europe Failing?", writes: "One can conduct great election campaigns by whipping up sentiment against Europe and Germany these days. The advocates of strict austerity in Berlin fear that they may run out of allies given the strengthening of euro opponents."

In a separate commentary, the newspaper writes: "The strengthening of the far right shows that in many countries, governments haven't found answers to simple questions. The language of the EU and of national governments isn't being understood by many citizens who are grateful for the simple slogans of the populists. People who don't understand Europe's austerity policy can't be persuaded by citing clauses of the Maastricht treaty or the fear of 'markets' that will punish their country. That just makes people more rebellious."

Dear Handelsblatt, Merkel's austerity policy is not "Europe". Heck, even the Euro itself is not "Europe".

Oh, and we do "understand" Europe's austerity. We understand it all too well. That's never been the problem.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 04:52:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Particularly galling is the notion that "fear of the markets" is not in fact the main argument the austerians have...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 05:57:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Particularly galling is the notion that "fear of the markets" is notnow in fact the main argument the austerians have...

I presume...

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 08:50:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
oops
yes you presume correctly
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:18:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
En direct - Libération Live - Libération
Nicolas Sarkozy est «en train d'extrême droitiser la droite» d'après Jean-Luc Mélenchon, interrogé ce matin sur France inter. «La phrase qui consiste à dire "se faire traiter de fasciste par un communiste est un compliment" est une reprise mot pour mot de Pierre Laval le collabo, de la même manière que parler de fête du travail et dire que c'est le "vrai travail", c'est mot pour mot le texte de l'affiche du Maréchal Pétain en 1941»Nicolas Sarkozy is " currently steering the right towards the extreme right " according Jean-Luc Melenchon, interviewed this morning on France Inter. "[Sarkozy's] phrase" being called a fascist by a Communist is a compliment " is taken verbatim from the collaborator Pierre Laval, the same way that talking about Labor Day and talking about"real work" is the verbatim text of the poster of Marshal Petain in 1941 "


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 07:38:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Croissance: les réponses de Berlin aux demandes de Hollande Growth: Berlin responds to Hollande's requests
En cas d'élection de François Hollande le 6 mai, un clash avec l'Allemagne devrait pouvoir être évité. Tel est le principal enseignement d'une conférence organisée à Berlin le 26 avril par un centre de réflexions européen, l'European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR) et la fondation Mercator.In case of election of Francois Hollande May 6, a clash with Germany should be avoidable. This is the main teaching of a conference in Berlin on April 26 by a center of European thought, the European Council is Foreign Relations (ECFR) and the Mercator Foundation.
Parmi les participants, les députés européens Daniel Cohn-Bendit et Sylvie Goulard, le député allemand JohannWadephul (CDU), le secrétaire d'Etat allemand aux affaires européennes Michael Link et Jean-Louis Bianco, chargé des "grandes orientations" internationales dans l'équipe du candidat socialiste. Celui-ci a repris les propos tenus la veille par François Hollande lors de sa conférence de presse.Among the participants, MEPs Daniel Cohn-Bendit and Sylvie Goulard, German MEP JohannWadephul (CDU), the German State Secretary for European Affairs and Michael Link Jean-Louis Bianco, charged with international affairs in the team of the socialist candidate. He followed up on remarks made yesterday by Francois Hollande during his press conference.
Au lendemain du scrutin, en cas de victoire, il adressera un mémorandum à tous les chefs d'Etat et de gouvernement sur la renégociation du traité budgétaire conclu entre vingt-cinq des Etats européens. Ce mémorandum, destiné à permettre une relance de la croissance dans l'Union, comportera quatre points. D'abord la création d'euro-obligations, "non pas pour mutualiser les dettes, mais pour financer des projets industriels d'infrastructures dont les Etats détermineront l'ampleur". Deuxième point : l'augmentation "de possibilités de financement de la Banque européenne d'investissement (BEI), de façon à ce qu'un certain nombre de grands dossiers qui sont déjà connus de cette banque puissent être financés".Following these elections, if they win, he will send a memorandum to all heads of State and Government on the renegotiation of the treaty concluded budget between twenty-five European states. The memorandum, intended to allow renewed growth in the EU, has four points. First the creation of eurobonds, , "not to pool debts , but finance infrastructure projects including industrial states will determine the extent" . Second point: increase "funding opportunities from the European Investment Bank (EIB), so that a number of major projects that are already known from this bank can be financed" .
Troisième point : "la création d'une taxe sur les transactions financières, avec les Etats qui en décideront". Enfin, la mobilisation de "tous les reliquats des fonds structurels européens aujourd'hui inutilisés pour permettre d'accompagner là encore un certain nombre de projets venant des Etats et qui auront des retombées sur les entreprises".Third point: "the creation of a tax on financial transactions, with the states that decide to apply it" . Finally, the mobilization of "all remaining European structural funds currently unused to accompany a number of projects from the States which will impact positively on businesses " .
Si le gouvernement allemand reste hostile aux euro-bonds, les trois autres points peuvent obtenir son aval. "Mieux utiliser la BEI qui est une belle endormie, oui", a dit Michael Link. Depuis plusieurs mois, les Européens discutent d'une possible augmentation de capital de la banque de l'Union européenne dont un Allemand, Werner Hoyer, prédécesseur de Michael Link aux affaires étrangères, a d'ailleurs pris la présidence en janvier.If the German government remains hostile to the euro-bonds, the other three points can get endorsement. "Put the EIB, which is a sleeping beauty, to better use, yes," said Michael Link . For several months, the Europeans have been discussing a possible capital increase of the bank of the European Union including a German, Werner Hoyer predecessor, Michael Link for Foreign Affairs, has also assumed the chairmanship in January .
"PACT SUNT SERVANDA" "PACT SUNT SERVANDA"
"Utiliser les fonds structurels inutilisés, oui" a poursuivi Michael Link. Officiellement le gouvernement allemand est favorable à une taxe sur les transactions financières si l'ensemble des pays de la zone euro la mettent en place. François Hollande souhaite l'instaurer sans attendre un très hypothétique feu vert de Londres et il est vraisemblable qu'il souhaite taxer davantage de produits financiers que les Allemands, qui verraient bien cette taxe s'apparenter à un simple impôt de bourse. "Using unused structural funds, yes" said Michael Link . Officially, the German government favors a tax on financial transactions if all the countries of the euro area participate. Francois Hollande wants to go ahead without a very hypothetical agreement of London and it is likely that he wants to tax more financial products than the Germans, who would like this tax to be more like a simple stamp duty.
Reste donc les euro-obligations auxquelles est opposé Berlin "pour des raisons juridiques, politiques et économiques". Mais la définition de François Hollande correspond en fait à des "project-bonds", or ceux-ci ne sont pas mal perçus par le gouvernement allemand. Celui-ci a d'ailleurs accepté que ces obligations soient évoquées lors du dernier conseil européen.Remains Eurobonds which are opposed by Berlin "for legal, political and economic reasons" . But the definition of Francois Hollande is actually of "project bonds" , which are not frowned upon by the German government. It has also accepted that these obligations are discussed at the last European Council.
Berlin est en revanche opposé à ce que la France conditionne la ratification du pacte budgétaire à la mise en place de ce mémorandum. " Pacta sunt servanda " (les traités doivent être respectés ), ont martelé les Allemands. Dans un entretien au groupe de presse régionale WAZ, vendredi, la chancelière allemande Angela Merkel a réaffirmé que, à ses yeux, le pacte "n'est pas négociable".Berlin does, however, object to France subordinating the ratification of the budgetary pact to implementation of this memorandum. "pacta sunt" (treaties must be respected), have hammered the Germans. In an interview with regional newspaper group WAZ, Friday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel reiterated that in his view, the pact "not negotiable" .
Manifestement, l'équipe de François Hollande a choisi quatre points sur lesquels un accord lui parait envisageable assez facilement. " Il est primordial de redonner de l'espoir aux Européens " a justifié Jean-Louis Bianco qui a également jugé - là aussi en accord avec Michael Link - qu'il était temps de mettre fin à une sorte de directoire franco-allemand pour revenir à une méthode communautaire qui ne laisse pas les autres pays à l'écart.Clearly, the team of Francois Hollande has chosen four points on which agreement seems to him quite easily possible. "It is essential restore hope to the Europeans" justified Jean-Louis Bianco also found that - again according to Michael Link - it was time to put an end to a kind of Franco-German executive, and go back to the community method that leaves no other country out.
Une fois un accord sur ces quatre points, l'entourage du candidat socialiste entend passer à des dossiers plus délicats : les euro-obligations, l'octroi d'une licence bancaire au mécanisme européen de stabilité et l'élaboration d'un véritable traité social européen.Once an agreement reached on these four points, the entourage of the socialist candidate intends to go on to more delicate subjects : Eurobonds, the granting of a banking license in European Stability Mechanism and the development of a real European Social treaty .


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 08:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is why it was high grade bullshit when we were being told "why do you worry about the fiscal pact? It's just symbolic anyway."

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 08:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see how that follows. The political success of anti-austerity seems to make the pact null.
by rootless2 on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:17:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Germans are nothing if not legalistic.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:20:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So? Power determines, not laws.
by rootless2 on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:25:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Romanian government falls following a motion of censure.

Romanian opposition bolstered by deserters from the ruling coalition and national minority MPs managed to pass a motion of censure with 235 votes ( 231 needed ).
Romanian president Traian Basescu will consult with the political parties starting from 14.00 UTC  .

by cavver on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What prompted the censure motion?

Can we have a diary?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:03:20 PM EST
US refuses to lift Myanmar sanctions | News | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

The US has ruled out an immediate end to sanctions on Myanmar despite recent reforms, which it branded as "reversible." The new democratic policies prompted the EU and Canada to suspend most sanctions earlier this week.

The United States refused to follow in the footsteps of Canada and the EU on Wednesday by ruling out an immediate end to its main sanctions on Myanmar.

Both the EU and Canada suspended most sanctions on the regime earlier this week, while Japan waived $3.7 billion (2.8 billion euros) of the country's debt in response to a series of democratic changes introduced by President Thein Sein.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:31:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wen announces $10 billion line of credit | News | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

China has announced a special line of credit worth $10 billion to fund infrastructure, technology and environmental projects in central and eastern Europe, one its fastest-growing trade partners.

Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao on Thursday said his government plans to set up a $10 billion (7.6 billion euro) special line of credit for central and eastern European countries as his trip to Europe comes to an end.

Speaking to thousands of delegates at the China-Central Europe economic forum in Warsaw, Wen said the credit line was "to boost practical cooperation with central and east European countries."

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:33:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Institutional Affairs / Informal EU summit on growth possible before June

BRUSSELS - EU leaders may meet for a special summit dedicated to growth before a regular meeting at the end of June, Council chief Herman Van Rompuy said on Thursday (26 April), as several Prime Ministers stressed the need to shift the focus away from austerity.

Picking up on the calls made by mostly by centre-left EU politicians, Van Rompuy told an audience at a business conference in Brussels that this was "the highest priority for European leaders."

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:04:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Economic Affairs / Hollande sees his calls for 'growth pact' vindicated

BRUSSELS - French Socialist candidate Francois Hollande has reaffirmed his intention to re-open the treaty on fiscal discipline to include a "growth pact" and said his stance is gaining support.

The frontrunner in the French presidential elections said in a press conference on Wednesday (25 April) that if elected, he would send a letter to other EU leaders proposing a "growth pact" to be added to the existing treaty on tight budget rules.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EUobserver.com / Institutional Affairs / MEPs back cost-cutting on EU staff

BRUSSELS - MEPs have backed changes to working conditions for EU officials designed to save over €1 billion a year and to improve ethical standards.

The legal affairs committee in Brussels on Tuesday (25 April) voted through the new staff regulation by 19 against three with two abstentions. The Green group was the main malcontent, after its amendment on a higher tax for salaries of top officials failed to make the final cut.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does aid to Africa from Brics countries differ from traditional aid? | Jonathan Glennie | Global development | guardian.co.uk

It is not original to remark that there is a modern-day scramble for Africa taking place. Economic growth averaging around 5% on the continent for the past decade is certainly good news compared with two decades of increasing poverty. But on the other side of the coin are the reasons for that growth: the large-scale export of commodities with no clear industrial or institutional benefits. "Jobless growth", the source of the uprisings in north Africa, is the norm in Africa, and although manufacturing exports quadrupled to over $100bn in the last decade, manufacturing is actually declining as a proportion of GDP from a fairly stable 17% between 1965 and 1990 to 13% today.

Clearly African countries need to think hard about their development strategies and how best to take advantage of the changing global context. Is the ever-growing interest in Africa's land and resources its route out of poverty, or are we seeing dependency theory in action, with resources being extracted with little resembling sustainable development left behind? A recent article on the impact of oil wealth in Chad bears out this complex picture.

h/t The Stormy Present

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 03:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, Mr. Krugman, Bernanke's Conundrum is Completely Different    Guest post by Pavlina Tcherneva in naked capitalism

Our mainstream colleagues keep banging their heads against the wall. "Why, oh why wouldn't Chairman Bernanke do more to rescue the economy?" Today Paul Krugman took on this question again, arguing that Chairman Bernanke should listen to Professor Bernanke who had far more sensible ideas about rescuing an economy from a deflationary environment, as seen in his research on Japan during the 90s.

....

In 2010, I wrote a paper Bernanke's Paradox (JPKE version, April 2011) which examines his monetary policy prescriptions for Japan in detail. I have been asking myself the same question: why isn't Bernanke following his own advice? But the answer I give is that it's because he cannot, literally. Whatever policy options he believes to be genuinely effective actually depend on Congress and not on him.

The difference is that, unlike Paul Krugman, I actually read Bernanke's paper from start to finish. See, what Krugman is missing is that Bernanke did not prescribe two policy options to deal with deflations (1. stick to an inflation target and 2. engage in alternative OMOs), but four.

I have discussed these in the paper above and in shorter blogs.... Here are the four options Bernanke recommends:

    1. Commit to an inflation target and a long-term low interest rate environment;

    2. Depreciate the currency through open market purchases of foreign currency;

    3. Engage in non-traditional OMOs - including purchases of long term government securities and other private sector liabilities such as non-performing loans, commercial paper, corporate bonds, asset-backed securities and other;

    4. Last but not least, finance various fiscal transfers (e.g., tax cuts) to boost consumption demand;

....

Fiscal components of monetary policy, of course are a euphemism for fiscal policy proper. The reason why Bernanke calls them "components" of monetary policy and why the mainstream refuses to acknowledge them is because they are still blindly wedded to the idea that monetary policy is omnipotent in rescuing the economy from recessions. Well, it's time to give up this old notion. How many years of low interest rates, aggressive QE1, QE2, Operations Twists, swaps, and $trillions and $trillions of lending do we need to recognize that these policy actions do not provide proper channels for dealing with the unemployment problem?

How long before we try what has been shown to work in the 30s and 40s - direct federal spending?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 10:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:05:00 PM EST
Twin bombings hit Nigerian newspaper | News | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

Two bombs have exploded at newspaper offices in the Nigerian capital, Abuja, and the northern city of Kaduna in attacks bearing resemblance to others claimed by a radical Islamist group.

Twin bombings hit the offices of the Nigerian daily newspaper This Day in two cities on Thursday, killing at least sixpeople, witnesses and officials said.

A suicide bomber detonated a car bomb at This Day's offices in the capital, Abuja, while a man threw an explosive device at an office in the northern city of Kaduna that houses This Day, The Moment and The Daily Sun newspapers.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:28:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Deadly blasts hit newspaper offices in Abuja, Kaduna - NIGERIA - FRANCE 24

AFP - Bomb blasts targeting newspaper offices in Nigeria's capital Abuja and the northern city of Kaduna on Thursday killed at least six people in the first such attacks targeting the country's news media.

The explosion in the capital badly damaged an office of national newspaper ThisDay, one of the country's most prominent, killing at least three people there, according to a rescue official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Circumstances were unclear, but witnesses said it appeared a bomber had driven toward the building through a back gate.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Taylor convicted of aiding and abetting war crimes | News | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

An international tribunal in The Hague has found former Liberian President Charles Taylor criminally responsible for crimes against humanity committed during Sierra Leone's civil war.

A United Nations-backed court in The Hague has unanimously found Charles Taylor guilty of aiding and abetting atrocities in connection with Sierra Leone's civil war.

"The trial chamber finds you guilty of aiding and abetting of all these crimes," presiding judge Richard Lussick told the Special Court for Sierra Leone in The Hague following a preamble of well over two hours.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:30:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hague court finds Liberia's Charles Taylor guilty - THE HAGUE - FRANCE 24
AP - In a historic ruling, an international court has convicted former Liberian President Charles Taylor of aiding and abetting war crimes and crimes against humanity for supporting notoriously brutal Sierra Leone rebels in return for blood diamonds.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
France seeks further sanctions against Syria | Middle East | DW.DE | 25.04.2012

France's foreign minister has threatened harsher measures against Syria if the regime continues to defy a UN-brokered peace deal. Alain Juppe raised the prospect of military intervention to enforce broader UN sanctions.

French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe raised the prospect of military intervention in Syria on Wednesday in a sign of growing international frustration at the regime's defiance of a peace deal brokered by UN-Arab League envoy, Kofi Annan.

With the death toll in Syria rising daily, Juppe revealed that France had discussed invoking Chapter Seven of the United Nations charter with other world partners. He also demanded that a 300-strong UN observer team be deployed to Syria within two weeks, rather than the three months agreed by the UN deal. There are currently just 15 observers in the country.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pakistan's top court convicts Gilani of contempt | News | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

Pakistan's Supreme Court has convicted the prime minister of contempt. It sentenced Yousuf Raza Gilani to a symbolic sentence which only lasted a few minutes.

Pakistan's top court has convicted Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani of contempt of court.

The country's Supreme Court found Prime Minister Gilani guilty of ignoring court orders to write to Swiss authorities to ask them to re-open corruption cases against the president, Asif Ali Zardari.

"For reasons to be recorded later, the prime minister is found guilty of contempt for willfully flouting the direction of the Supreme Court," Justice Nasir-ul-Mulk said.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pakistani PM found guilty of contempt of court - PAKISTAN - FRANCE 24

AFP - Pakistan's prime minister was Thursday convicted of contempt of court by the country's highest court but given only a token sentence in a case that could still see him thrown out of office.

The Supreme Court found Yousuf Raza Gilani guilty of contempt over his refusal to obey an order to write to the authorities in Switzerland to ask them to re-open corruption cases against President Asif Ali Zardari.

Gilani had faced a maximum sentence of six months in prison, but the court ordered him to be "imprisoned" until the hearing adjourned and he emerged shortly afterwards smiling and waving to supporters.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:13:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
National interests trump personal ties for Romney | World | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

The recently revealed friendship between Mitt Romney and Benjamin Netanyahu has caused a stir in the US election campaign. But it won't have a big impact, even if Romney wins the White House.

The close personal relationship between presumptive Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu depicted in detail by The New York Times recently wasn't entirely unknown. But it was the first time it had really been brought to international attention.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gingrich to drop US presidential bid, endorse Romney - US ELECTIONS - FRANCE 24

REUTERS - Newt Gingrich is quitting the U.S. Republican presidential contest after a tumultuous campaign that saw him go from longshot to front-runner and back again.

The final blow for the former House of Representatives speaker came on Tuesday night, when rival Mitt Romney easily won primary victories in five northeastern states that crowned him as the presumptive Republican nominee.

Gingrich had campaigned heavily in Delaware as the conservative alternative to Romney but he lost by nearly 30 percentage points there.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bahrain hunger striker's fate concerns wife - FRANCE 24

AFP - The wife of detained Bahraini activist Abdulhadi al-Khawaja, who is on a hunger strike, said Thursday she is being denied the right to call or visit the prominent Shiite dissident.

"They say he is in good health, but if that's true, then why won't they let me speak to him, why won't they let me see him?" asked Khadija Khawaja.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:13:51 PM EST
Ukraine builds new Chernobyl radiation shelter | News | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

On the anniversary of the world's worst nuclear disaster, Ukraine began work on a containment unit for the damaged Chernobyl reactor. The shelter will allow experts to clean up radioactive material in the reactor.

Warning nations to take extreme care with nuclear energy, Ukraine's president thanked international contributors for their donations to create a new, safer cover for the Chernobyl reactor, which exploded 26 years ago.

"The Chernobyl disaster underscored that mankind must be extra careful in using nuclear technologies," President Viktor Yanukovych said. "Nuclear accidents lead to global consequences. They are not a problem of just one country; they affect the life of entire regions."

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Work starts on permanent Chernobyl container - UKRAINE - FRANCE 24

AFP - Ukraine launched Thursday construction of a new shelter to permanently secure the stricken Chernobyl plant as it marked the 26th anniversary of the world's worst nuclear disaster.

President Viktor Yanukovych pressed a symbolic button at the construction site, watched by workers and ambassadors from China, Japan and a number of other countries that contributed to the massive project, expected to cost 1.5 billion euros.

"In the name of Ukraine, I express my deep thanks to all the donor countries to the Chernobyl Shelter Fund for their understanding and effective aid to our country in overcoming the largest disaster in human history," Yanukovych said.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know a country which will be interested in importing that technology...hopefully only one...
by asdf on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
China's Arctic ambitions spark concerns | World | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

The Arctic and its vast energy reserves were a key focus of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao's recent trip to Europe, fueling concerns about Beijing's preparations for an ice-free Arctic Ocean.

It may seem surprising that Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, leader of the world's most populous nation, should begin his Europe tour with a stop in Iceland, a remote island with a population of just 320,000. But the move is in line with a wider Chinese strategy to gain a strategic foothold in the Arctic. Global climate change is opening up the once inaccessible region for shipping and industrial development.

A 2011 report by the Arctic Monitoring Assessment Program (AMAP) says that the Arctic is warming twice as fast as the rest of the planet. Estimates suggest the polar ice cap might disappear completely during the summer season as soon as 2040, perhaps much earlier.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nabucco pipeline future uncertain as Hungary backs Russian rival | Europe | DW.DE | 26.04.2012

The Nabucco pipeline was intendend to make Europe less dependent on Russian gas. But with one of the backers jumping ship, the entire project is now in danger.

It must have been a meeting in good spirits, back in 2002, rounded off by a visit to the famous Vienna opera. That evening's performance? Verdi's Nabucco - and the officials from energy companies from Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Austria seemed to have enjoyed the show.

But a great performance was probably not the only reason for naming their planned pipeline Nabucco. Like Verdi's protagonist, who attempts to free his people from bondage, the deal was nothing less than an ambitious plan to win independence from government-controlled Russian oil and gas giant Gazprom and to build a separate pipeline from Austria to Azerbaijan, allowing Central Asian gas to bypass Russian territory.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
David Cameron: this is the greenest government ever | Environment | guardian.co.uk

The government has achieved its aim of being the "greenest ever", David Cameron said on Thursday, in his first significant remarks on the environment since reaching office.

"When I became prime minister I said I would aim to have the greenest government ever and this is exactly what we have," he told energy ministers from the world's leading nations at a summit in London.

Cameron said he "passionately believed" the growth of renewable energy was vital to the UK's future. "I believe renewable energy can be among our cheapest energy sources within years not decades," he said. But he warned: "We need to make it financially sustainable."

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does consumption need tackling before population? | Leo Hickman | Environment | guardian.co.uk
As the Royal Society report and others have made quite clear today, it is impossible to isolate consumption and population and view them as separate issues. They are tightly interwoven and near-impossible to prise apart. But that shouldn't frighten us off from discussing them in detail and I welcome today's report and believe it to be an important, heavy-weight contribution to this vexed, highly emotional debate about sustainable "boundaries", which many seem still too keen to dismiss or deny.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:23:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:14:13 PM EST
M&S launches 'shwopping' scheme | Money | guardian.co.uk

Britain's biggest clothing retailer is launching a campaign to stop one in four items of clothing bought in the UK ending up in the bin.

Marks & Spencer wants customers to hand over an old or unwanted garment whenever they buy a new one, to encourage a phenomenon it has dubbed "shwopping".

It wants to kick-start a "buy one, give one" culture which could allow unwanted items to be resold, reused or recycled by its charity partner Oxfam. According to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, UK consumers throw away 2m tonnes of clothing a year, with half going straight to landfill.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:24:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why I've made public the films of my kids growing up | Frans Hofmeester | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
I started filming my daughter Lotte as a newborn in 1999, every week, usually on a Saturday morning. After 12 years of filming her, and nine years of doing the same with her brother Vince, I turned the footage into the two films you see today. While I always had the feeling that this project was special and that it deserved a wider audience, I never dreamed that it would get this kind of exposure.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 01:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]


As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 12:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I returned briefly to America last week, and although the security was very tight both coming and going, it was at least more polite and respectful than on earlier visits. I wouldn't suggest my limited experience means much, but there are at least a few TSA personnel who seem to know their business.
by Andhakari on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 04:42:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A funny thing happened to the TSA.  They are huge and powerful and are organizing themselves, just like every other federal group of size.  I actually think the TSA staff will ultimately be on the people's side.
by paving on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 11:31:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you comparing the same place? I've had the feeling that the NY ones are more civilized than elsewhere, but that might be just my limited experience.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 12:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My experience is mostly with Chicago, both now and previously. Last time through it was like dealing with folk who had been rejected by the loan sharks for being too brutal. This time there seemed to be an awareness that terrorism might not be defeated by surliness alone. If only the rest of the government might learn that lesson.
by Andhakari on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 01:07:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:14:37 PM EST
`Wrecking Crew' Film Focuses on Session Players - NYTimes.com

A 2002 documentary called "Standing in the Shadows of Motown," about the Funk Brothers, the studio musicians who provided the backing for Motown Records' biggest hits between 1959 and 1972, won several film awards and a Grammy and showed that there is an audience for films like Mr. Tedesco's; it made over $2.3 million at the global box office, has done well as a DVD and was accompanied by an uptick in sales of CDs by Motown artists. But that film was easier to make because, as Mr. Blaine noted, the Funk Brothers worked exclusively for Motown, but the Wrecking Crew played for dozens of labels large and small. Mr. Hartman, whose book is also called "The Wrecking Crew," said he was puzzled by what he sees as the shortsightedness of the four conglomerates that now control the music business.

"The Wrecking Crew made these songs hits and made the record companies a ton of money," he said. "It's to their advantage to let this thing come out. Here's this beautifully crafted marketing vehicle that could sell so many more copies of these great songs. It's free money for the labels, with no cost for them. But here comes Denny to reinvigorate their catalog, and he has to pay to do it."



"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2012 at 07:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For Crazy Horse:

Thousands remember Levon Helm.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 01:37:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Danke.

Respect, Levon.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 02:50:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

funky dat!

"We can all be prosperous but we can't all be rich." Ian Welsh

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2012 at 09:01:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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