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I'm not saying that's morally right.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 05:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not the point. The point is bringing the elite to account rather than destroy the social well being of the lower classes.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 06:03:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the elite didn't hold the political power they wouldn't be the elite.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 06:06:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why they need to be checked and contrasted. With present day oligarchic republics, that's not going to happen.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 06:10:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The paradigm's gotta change. "Political power" needn't be the defining characteristic of the elite. It's a power they have usurped through the inception and development of constitutional republics that excluded the masses from decisional processes through such delusional processes such as electoral systems.

The defining characteristic of the elite is to dominate by any means possible whether it be legal or illegal. The nature and extent of their "political power" is determined by how far they can push the rules of the game and get away with it.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 06:25:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a power they have usurped through the inception and development of constitutional republics that excluded the masses from decisional processes through such delusional processes such as electoral systems.

Let's see.

So you're saying that the establishment of constitutional republics with electoral systems usurped power from the masses? So the masses held political power before the constitutional republics?

On which alternative timeline were the constitutional republics preceded by "truly democratic" political systems rather than the ancien régime or assorted authoritarian regimes?

Or are we talking about the times of relative anarchy around WWII? (Spanish Anarchist Revolution in 1936, possibly Italy and Greece at the end of WWII and during its immediate aftermath...)

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 06:32:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I use the expression "usurped through" in relation to the formation of the modern state. I admit the expression is strong but is not equivalent to "usurped" which would imply a previous condition. Effectively the ground-breaking US Constitution owes much to Madison's initial elite blueprint.

Perhaps the only true covenant within a republic that effectively checked or blocked elite domination was the Roman republic until the Gracchi murders over land distribution. Solderini's Florentine republic was another experience, short-lived at that. They were effectively hybrid democracies based on sortition and electoral systems. Modern oligarchic republics do have checks and balances as well as sortition-like empowerment but crucial power is wielded through electoral rituals that are easily gamed to the nearly exclusive benefit of the elite.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 06:55:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On that we agree. Now, would you mind developing your line of thought in a diary?

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 06:56:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have but as you know I am fucking slow.

It seems pertinent to upcoming events such as the elections in Greece and the massive disaffection with politics throughout the world, thanks, I must say, to the crisis.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 07:02:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a central message of the indignados/15M/Occupy movements: "They call it democracy but it isn't".

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 07:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you're saying that the establishment of constitutional republics with electoral systems usurped power from the masses?

The usurpation was on the level of the posited ideals of those who founded the republics as opposed to the reality of how they governed. This is aided by the strong desire of both governed and those who govern to validate the legitimacy of the system. At the time of formation, many of the elite sincerely believed in the ideals on which they based the government and viewed the recognized deficiencies as the cost of achieving the best that could be accomplished.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 10:34:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's obvious from British history that with a few short exceptions - specifically the post-war period - the UK has been run as a corporate oligarchy for most of its existence.

Government has always been closely associated with adventuring corporations, from at least the time of the various India Companies.

The universal franchise and the electoral process provide the appearance of a pseduo-democratic mandate.

But as we saw recently in the UK, and as we've seen everywhere in Europe and the US, pretend-left parties always make sure that the interests of financial corporations come first, and that worker populations are farmed to that end.

The nastiness at the moment is based on the corporate realisation that domestic workforces no longer have any economic power. Most work can be done cheaper off-shore, so there's no longer any need to pretend that the working and middle classes can have a seat at the policy table.

The object now seems to be to keep workers cowed and terrified with consumer inflation, decreasing wages, and obvious political bullying and surveillance.

Politically we're already back in the 19th century pre-commune - never mind pre-franchise - days. The only question now is how much worse it's going to get, and how many pols are in on the joke.

Oh - and 'official' economics has never been more than a faked up justification for political repression.

The underlying problem is that elites are defined by their willingness to accumulate power and wealth at any human cost. There's no point expecting them to act differently, because it's who they are and what they do.

The only practical question is how to organise an effective pushback.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 10:51:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The underlying problem is that elites are defined by their willingness to accumulate power and wealth at any human cost.

For many of the US elites that has always been the case. That is pretty clearly shown by the number of corporations that had profitable relations with the Nazis prior to, and even through,  WW II. And one of the reasons some, like Henry Ford, was sympathetic was the efficiency with which the Nazis dealt with labor organizations.

Leo Strauss shared an interest in the philosophers, Nietzsche and Heidegger, admired by the Nazis and saw the Nazi party as a potential tool for his own aims, if they weren't so inconveniently fixated on the Jews. In Paris in the '30s he wrote to a friend "They consider me a Nazi here". Perhaps that is why the Nazi government assisted in getting him to the USA where he ended up at the University of Chicago teaching Political Science and became an influence on the likes of Rumsfield, David Rockefeller, Crystol, and other neocons.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 01:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
WSJ- Surrender, Italian Style
The unions water down Monti's labor reforms.

Let us now un-praise famous men. Last week, we congratulated Prime Minister Mario Monti for standing up to Italy's powerful trade unions and pushing ahead with a reform of his country's notoriously restrictive and anticompetitive labor laws. In a fit of temporary euro insanity, we even expressed the hope that Mr. Monti might be a leader in the mold of Margaret Thatcher, willing to stand up to modern-day Arthur Scargills.

And this after the FT interview with the troglodyte Emma Marcegaglia.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 06:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
James Murdoch may be gone...

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2012 at 10:41:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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