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Why? Because idiots with prejudices like Jenkins are given a loudspeaker?


The complexity involved should only allow technocrats in the temples - so the question becomes, do we have faith in technocrats to lead us through the desert?

The point of technocrats is that they try to rely on facts and can be checked by other technocrats and experts, which is how technocrats and experts are supposed to work (i.e. with respect, if not to "truth" at least to the scientific method which allows for verification and the weeding of false ideas and opinions).

And even in energy there are hard facts. It is in fact rather easy to distinguish between hard facts, assumptions about the future, and political preferences - for example, the capacity factor of a plan is a fact, the price of gas in 10-years time is a guesstimate and the discount rate used to value a kWh produced in 10 years' time is a political choice.


Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 04:09:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point of technocrats is that they try to rely on facts and can be checked by other technocrats and experts, which is how technocrats and experts are supposed to work (i.e. with respect, if not to "truth" at least to the scientific method which allows for verification and the weeding of false ideas and opinions).
Do you believe technocrats do, in fact, work as they're supposed to work? The problem with technocrats is that they claim to be apolitical and objective when in reality they're likely to be just blind to their own prejudices, or worse, trained to be blind to the assumptions underlying the methods they use.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 04:55:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In my impression (based on several personal discussions and reading articles and forum discussions) energy sector technocrats in former communist countries (and I'm talking about the engineers here) are almost uniformly against renewables, citing decades-old studies prepared by Western Big Energy. And that applies to the younger generation, too: I think there is a groupthink permeated via universities. For the purposes of confirming your point, it doesn't even matter who is right, just that there are regional differences in the certainties of energy sector technocrats.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 05:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In sum, technocrats are not scientists. At most they're technologists. And engineers are not trained in the scientific method, but in what works. Heck, not even scientists are trained in the scientific method anymor, but in what's publishable.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 05:19:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In what sense are the various minions of Big Money who are steering the crisis technocrats?

That word is pure undistilled propaganda. The reality is they're Money Party apparatchiks and they'll do what apparatchiks always do - repeat the Party line word for word.

With the exception of Merkel, who - unforgivably - has a physics PhD, I suspect most of the rest can barely operate a TV remote.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 05:27:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In what sense are apparatchiks and functionaries not technocrats?

The French Grandes-Écoles system is one big technocrat/functionary/apparatchik factory. Trichet is a prime example of its output. Unlike Draghi he hasn't actually ever worked for the private sector so it's not obvious why he should be classed as a "money party apparatchik".

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 05:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because - in my definition at least - technocracy requires some basic level of scientific literacy and critical thinking.

Anything to do with economics or money falls at the first hurdle, because economics and money are primarily political - which is to say they're about power for its own sake, and not about the common good, or social improvement, or reality-based decision making, or any of those other fine things.

After a token start in engineering - with management and social science - Trichet's education was almost entirely political, so I'm not sure why you think he's a technocrat. (Being labelled as such in the press hardly counts, of course.)

A true technocrat would have spent a significant part of their career building stuff that works and/or doesn't fall down. Most of the so-called technocrats have never come close to this - with predictably hilarious consequences.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 07:15:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The main problem with the economics profession is not that it suffers from a shortage of engineers.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 07:32:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because - in my definition at least - technocracy requires some basic level of scientific literacy and critical thinking.

And, like I said in a parallel comment, it's obvious that this can be ascertained with the naked eye.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 08:26:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not obvious - it requires the scientific method, and political feedback mechanisms that appreciate same.

But apparently it's equally not obvious that practical politics is mostly about lying and making shit up for personal gain, that there really isn't much else going on, and that the only consequences that matter are the ones that lead to personal gain for a tiny minority of the population.

If something keeps happening, and the same people keep benefiting from it, why are we still discussing whether it's deliberate and not some freak entirely accidental byproduct of poor reasoning skills?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 08:40:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
today it is obviously perverted even in the places where it has irked in the past. That doesn't mean it is necessarily perverted.

I'd note that our power systems seem to be better managed and provide cheaper electricity (externalities are something else) when they are run by engineers rather than politicians/lawyers/MBAs.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 10:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Technocracy works, sometimes, which can be said of many other systems as well.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 11:11:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because there are practically only "idiots" with prejudices with loudspeakers or there are people with prejudices - Jenkins is an example of what he himself bemoans.

That may work just fine for technocrats, because it can be ignored as marginal noise, but for a society at large, I find it pretty depressing.

Secondly, hard facts are one things. It's what people do with them that concerns me.

by Nomad on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 05:06:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're not a million miles away from Plato's argument for rule by "philosopher kings". Do you believe that "rule by philosopher king" is "good government" or "better government" necessarily?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 05:54:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And rule by idiot or mendacious pundit is an improvement? Because once you discredit the technocrats to the extent they've been discredited, that's what you get. cf. pretty much everything.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 05:59:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The technocrats did a fine job of discrediting themselves. See here.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 06:56:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm saying that the self-styled Philospher is indistinguishable to the naked eye from the mendacious pundit (a Sophist in Plato-speak). Plato did not explain how his Republic would avoid government capture by the sophists.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 07:04:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well Plato was a dangerous idiot himself, so I'm not sure why anyone should care what he thinks.

Honestly, most of his ideas were either dangerous, misleading, or just plain wrong - not just in a basic sense of not matching reality, but in the much more slippery sense of being seductively appealing and rhetorically influential, to the extent they sent the West off in some very self-destructive directions.

You could make a good case for the current crisis being a perfect example of self-styled philosopher kings believing they know what's best for everyone else, while talking and thinking utter nonsense.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 07:19:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plato was a dangerous idiot himself, so I'm not sure why anyone should care what he thinks

I'm just saying that people with Engineering degrees extolling the virtues of Technocracy in itself rather than as it actually exists sounds definitely Platonic to me.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 08:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not extolling the virtues of technocracy, so much as pointing out that the word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means and that it's being used in a rhetorical way to undermine useful reality-based input from competent scientists and engineers.

If anything, engineers mostly don't get politics because they assume everyone else on the planet is either already an engineer or should learn to think like one.

The reality - which is that some people people are trained to think like liars and thieves, and that these people run the planet - isn't an inconvenient truth you'll find on most engineering courses.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 08:36:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If anything, engineers mostly don't get politics because they assume everyone else on the planet is either already an engineer or should learn to think like one.

Which is why Engineers are mostly unfit for governing human beings.

Why are we talking about Technocracy, again?

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2012 at 08:47:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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