Socratic Economics XII: Utopian Government Finance | 405 comments (403 topical, 2 editorial, 4 hidden)

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

Excuse me but what you are doing right now is defending anti-semitism. I quote from the comment above.

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.
All of these desiderata assume that money creation is done by people acting in the interests of all. The problem is to create a system that reasonably insures that outcome and to do so starting from a situation where those who are effectively in charge of creating money are doing so in the interests of a very small group of wealth holders who have used that wealth to grab control of the various countries comprising the global economy - effectively dozens of Mayer Rothschilds. And they also control the world's media.

That's standard anti-semitic material. When I objected, the author helpfully explained that the whole conspiracy depended on Jews controlling banking in all the subject countries.

Silence is assent.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 08:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

What author?

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 08:50:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (4.00 / 2)

Because if you mean ARGeezer above you misread him terribly.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 08:52:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

That's possible, but I don't see how. One begins with a fabricated quote from Rothschild in which he outlines his plan to control the world for one knows not what shadowy purposes. One then points out that a "small group" of people not only control the banks but the world media. When faced with an objection, one writes that it could not have worked unless Jews controlled the banks in all nations.

I'd be thrilled to know that I misread this. What do you see as the intent?

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 08:56:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (4.00 / 3)

rootless2:

a fabricated quote from Rothschild

There is no evidence afaik about the origin of that often-cited quote. It doesn't only appear in antisemitic writings, but in many other places, considered as underlining the importance of money creation and control, over politics (democratic or otherwise).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:00:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

I suggest in the future people use the fake quote from Thomas Jefferson [Snopes] in preference to the fake Rothschild quote when they feel like falling prey to "famous dead people make excellent commentators on current events".

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:27:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Migeru:

falling prey to "famous dead people make excellent commentators on current events".

I'd be pleased to see a pill to prevent that "falling prey".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Just do as rootless2 does and you'll be safe. He's free from the syndrome apparently.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

That was just misplaced sarcasm. Rothshild's being Jewish is incidental to the point.

And the point is that the ruling class rules even in so called democracies. So long as finance and media remains in the hands of a small group of people democracy is empty. And it is a comparable small group of people. That's where the 1% rhetoric comes from.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:06:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

There is an important difference between a class analysis or a power elite analysis and a conspiracy theory about Jewish bankers although both might share some superficial similarities.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:24:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

Only that there was no conspiracy theory. There was a quote from a Jewish banker and you reacted hysterically. I hope you are not seriously arguing that all Jews are morally good. It would be as idiotic and false as the claim that all were evil.

You could have doubted the authenticity of the quote: fine by me. Instead you used all sorts of disingenuous and offensive insinuations. I wonder why. Why haven't you asked ARG politely to clarify if you honestly understood his post as antisemitic?

by Katrin on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:34:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

There was a fake quote from a Jewish banker that is part of the standard material of every anti-semitic conspiracy theory on the planet. It was followed by an assertion that a small group controls world banking and media.Nudge nudge, wink wink. When I objected to this, I was castigated and told to demonstrate the falsity of the quote. I'm not willing to accept that the burden is on the person objecting to the citation of anti-semitic material.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:42:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Entirely your construct.

Stop derailing this thread.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:45:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (4.00 / 3)

If you make an accusation, the burden of substantiating is on you. I am fairly new here. I assume that all my interlocutors are decent people. If I disagree with them, I assume they are wrong, but I am always aware that it could be me who is wrong, although that is not a nice thought for my ego.

I assume that ALL of us here find racism/anti-semitism wildly offensive. If I find a post of someone here racist or antisemitic, I would probably ASK the author to clarify, in this case ask if he knows where the quote is from. And if it really is meant in that spirit, I don't think I would be alone in raising hell. Why don't you possess the self-criticism to see that you just misinterpreted ARG?

by Katrin on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:52:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

What do you want me to substantiate?

That the attribution to Meyer Rothschild is bogus?
Look it up on google - you'll find it in every nazi, illuminati, conspiracy site. There is never any actual attribution beyond one nutball citing another one. And a rational person might ask what the probability is that a real person would actually make such a cartoonish statement.

Do you want me to substantiate that the there is something odious about following up "quote" about the occult powers of the Rothschilds with a remark about a small group of people without loyalty to the national prosperity controlling banks and media? Really?

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:12:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

C'mon. Don't play the naïve now. You had no reason to assume antisemitism, that's why you can't substantiate your accusation. How much longer will you play this rather offensive game?

by Katrin on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

to me you are the one playing at naivete.

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.
All of these desiderata assume that money creation is done by people acting in the interests of all. The problem is to create a system that reasonably insures that outcome and to do so starting from a situation where those who are effectively in charge of creating money are doing so in the interests of a very small group of wealth holders who have used that wealth to grab control of the various countries comprising the global economy - effectively dozens of Mayer Rothschilds. And they also control the world's media.

Let's look at this objectively

a spurious Rothschild quote - attributed to a banker who in no way ever had control over the issue of any nation's money.
"those who are effectively in charge of creating money are doing so in the interests of a very small group of wealth holders who have used that wealth to grab control of the various countries comprising the global economy - effectively dozens of Mayer Rothschilds."
"And they also control the world's media."

What do you need? A neon sign blinking on and off?

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:37:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Now, that right there is a fine reaction to the blockquote. This earlier attempt by yourself

Ah, the Jewish Banking Conspiracy. It's amazing the kind of stuff you can pick up in the Bircher milieu.

falls somewhere between trolling and concern trolling.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

To me it is the reverse. The problem is not that a concise and sharp response was too sharp, the problem is that the obvious needs to be spelled out.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 11:09:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Sharp and concise this?

It's amazing the kind of stuff you can pick up in the Bircher milieu

I already said you needed to take your beef with ARGeezer for reading Naked Capitalism elsewhere.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 11:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

you're assuming bad faith on the part of the posters here, and running with that into your paranoia that anything written that's not flattering to jews must be calumnious.

your projection, devoid of any evidence.

if you had been here longer, you'd know that racism never rears its ugly head at ET, people here are way too conscious to fall into that trap.

if said banker had been lithuanian or muslim, your paranoia would not have been triggered, and it would be equally absurd for lithuanians or muslims to cry wolf because said banker just happened to have that lineage or persuasion/religion/race.

in short you're seeing demons under the bed where they do not exist.

your racism radar would be handy at the bircher sites you decry ET posters as resembling, (if you chose to go there and flex it,) here they are just unfounded hysteria and utterly inappropriate.

you are safe here to speak your mind, but accusing others of racism is trolling, unless it's fact-based.

and it ain't, it's just shadows on your cave walls...

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 31st, 2012 at 03:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Why haven't you asked ARG politely to clarify if you honestly understood his post as antisemitic?

Because rootless2 is offended by the fact that ARG quotes approvingly certain contributions in particular to Naked Capitalism, and Naked Capitalism in general.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:30:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

And that is what threw you off. It is evident to everyone in this thread that you that ARG intended a (possibly half-assed, I'll give you that) power or class analysis where you saw antisemitism.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:31:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

rootless2:

One begins with a fabricated quote from Rothschild in which he outlines his plan to control the world for one knows not what shadowy purposes. One then points out that a "small group" of people not only control the banks but the world media. When faced with an objection,

which objection happens to be rootless2 saying

Ah, the Jewish Banking Conspiracy. It's amazing the kind of stuff you can pick up in the Bircher milieu.

one writes that it could not have worked unless Jews controlled the banks in all nations.

Well, not exactly.

Thank you for pointing out that this could not possibly have worked had not ALL of these bankers in all of these countries been Jewish.

is not "one writes that" but "one attributes to rootless2 that".

And so you're misrepresenting the thread by obviating your own role in it.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:21:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

rootless2:

Silence is assent.

You don't get to decide that.

Your "objection" could have been reasoned and evidence-backed. Instead of which it has been near-hysterical and offensive, built, as I said, on strawmen (libertarian Bircher antisemitic "left", wtf?).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 08:54:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Yes, you find it "offensive" and "hysterical" that I consider fabricated quotes from Rothschild followed by allegations that a small group controls the banks and media to be classical anti-semitism. However, you don't get to decide that.

You can remove me from your forum for objecting to Elders of Zion type material - go ahead.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:00:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

First you allege that it was a quote from the Protocols, now you backpedal to "Elders of Zion type material" (my emphasis).

Which is it? My Google-fu fails to divulge the actual origins.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:09:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

It's not a back pedal at all.

I'm really not in the mood to engage in footnote discussion about the sourcing of anti-semitic canards.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

rootless2:

I'm really not in the mood to engage in footnote discussion

However, endless nitpicking discussion is a speciality of yours - when you think you're on a winner.

In this case, I suggest you have made accusations you know you can't back up.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:32:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Suggest what you want. You are evading the topic.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:33:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

You have led this entire thread into a massive evasion of topic.

Now please stop.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:35:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Actually that's completely false.

I made a simple observation and was attacked.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:43:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

rootless2:

Ah, the Jewish Banking Conspiracy. It's amazing the kind of stuff you can pick up in the Bircher milieu.

That was your "simple observation".

But go on, try the victimisation ploy now.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

You are conducting a tutorial on how race privilege works. Now I'm engaging in "victimization" for objecting to anti-semitism! Because, of course, the real problem in any kind of racism or sexism for that matter is not the acceptance of such poison by the majority, but in the incivil, "hysterical" "victimization" of those who object.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:57:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

No, you're visibly just in the mood for concern trolling.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:15:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (4.00 / 2)

rootless2:

go ahead

You say-so is however not necessary to our decision.

What I consider near-hysterical is your nonsense about the Protocol, blood libel, well-poisoning, and the libertarian Bircher antisemitic "left".

What I consider offensive is telling another user who simply objected that there was no quote from the Protocol to fuck off.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:20:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (4.00 / 4)

I'd like to see you explain how you got from Migeru asking about the source of the Rothschild quote to a rant about the Protocols of Zion.

Perceptive readers will note that the only person who mentioned the Protocols was you.

More dedicated readers will know the quote has been discussed before and the conclusion was that it was apocryphal at best.

Obviously apart from that we're all seething racists bigots here.

But we do try a bit harder to hide it, at least most of the time.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:25:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

So an "apocryphal at best" story about Rothschild occult control, followed by a statement that a small group controls both the banking and media is something one would have to be irrational and hysterical to find offensively anti-semitic.

Astounding.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:31:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

No - what was hysterical was your reaction, language, and insults.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:33:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

I do not react well to anti-semitism or racism of any type.

I particularly do not react well to pseudo-objective defenses of such material from the basis of normative privilege.

Some of us find racism/anti-semitism wildly offensive and some are more concerned with the fraudulent "civility" that protects such sentiments.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:36:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

rootless2:

Some of us

you are alone in this here, where people are trying to understand inchoate eco-arcana peaceably without reference to race or religion.

no need for that, it's human failure to organise finance as a beneficial public commons we're discussing, nothing remotely tribal about it.

so why drag in that dead cat?

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 31st, 2012 at 04:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

libertarian Bircher antisemitic "left", wtf?

See this thread which includes

But the issue under discussion is not Keynes, it it Yves Smith and her[] web site which publishes all sorts of crazy Bircher level stuff, often packaged up a a "left critique".
One can look at Smith's site, dismiss contributors like Wheelan, excuse Smith's dishonest rhetoric, and pretend away racist comment list, but to me that is the essence of her publication.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (4.00 / 2)

I believe I first read the Mayer Amschel Rothschild quote years ago in The Rotschilds by Fredrick Morton, 1983 edition. It has been described as sycophancy, but a more recent edition was a National Book Award nominee. The comment about Jews having to control ALL the world's central banks was intended as sarcasm, considering the instances of China and Japan, to name just two obvious exceptions.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:20:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (4.00 / 4)

You might like to restrain your sarcasm in such circumstances, or at the very least indicate you were snarking.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 09:22:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

It was pretty obvious, especially given rootless' and ARG running battle over several comment threads regarding the american "left".

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

I knew that, but readers are not all supposed to be infused with ET lore.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:27:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

Not that it matters now that the original concern trolling has been hidden by community moderation.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 10:34:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

odd how the original anti-semitic conspiracy theory remains exposed and indeed recommended.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 11:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

[ET Moderation Technology™]

OK, you are not giving up on trolling this thread.

The warning above is now repeated. For the last time.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 11:28:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 0)

I am perfectly happy to be banned for objecting to anti-semitism. Was there anything unclear about my previous response?

Take the choice: ban me for angry response to Bircher anti-semitic conspiracy theory and call it a defense of civility if it makes you happy.

by rootless2 on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 11:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Utopian Government Finance (none / 1)

[ET Moderation Technology™]

You are not going to define the terms of the discussion.

Neither are you going to continue it.

Your account is suspended for one week from now. It will be reopened at the end of that period. If your behavious continues to be disruptive and insulting, you will get one warning before being finally banned.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun May 27th, 2012 at 11:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Socratic Economics XII: Utopian Government Finance | 405 comments (403 topical, 2 editorial, 4 hidden)

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